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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 18, 2023 18:49:54 GMT
As several people have already explained in this thread, the new Frome constituency as proposed would be a genuine Labour prospect as things stand - much less so if it were being contested by an imcumbent Lib Dem MP (or even if the Lib Dem MP went for the other succesor seat, the momentum from the by-election and the squeeze placed on the Labour vote then would impede their prospects at the general election). It's therefore entirely rational for Labour supporters to not wish the Lib Dems well.
interestingly Frome is known locally as the London borough of Frome, in part because of the number of people moving to the West Country & taking advantage of the direct rail service, bringing a degree of London political allegiances with them. That's quite interesting. I'd expect "New Frome" to be a target for us anyway; Frome itself has been quite arty and "progressive" for some years. (Not sure if its been mentioned, but IIRC John Harris of the Guardian's "Anywhere But Westminster" series lives there, so might be worth reading what he has to say.) |
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andrewp
Non-Aligned
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Member is Online
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Post by andrewp on Jun 18, 2023 18:51:25 GMT
As several people have already explained in this thread, the new Frome constituency as proposed would be a genuine Labour prospect as things stand - much less so if it were being contested by an imcumbent Lib Dem MP (or even if the Lib Dem MP went for the other succesor seat, the momentum from the by-election and the squeeze placed on the Labour vote then would impede their prospects at the general election). It's therefore entirely rational for Labour supporters to not wish the Lib Dems well. A conversation I’ve had about the LibDem candidate for Somerton & Frome is that she is from the Somerton end of the constituency & is likely to head for the new Glastonbury & Somerton Constituency, so potentially no incumbent LibDem MP in the new Frome. interestingly Frome is known locally as the London borough of Frome, in part because of the number of people moving to the West Country & taking advantage of the direct rail service, bringing a degree of London political allegiances with them. She lives near Wincanton, on the Somerset/Dorset border. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 18, 2023 18:55:50 GMT
Seriously, from the party who went into coalition with David Cameron? I am not a Liberal Democrat, I would always prefer the option to choose a Labour candidate. Whilst I wouldn't vote Conservative, I do not know why you think I would prefer to vote Lib Dem instead? Nobody's saying you should vote Lib Dem. It's the fact that a Labour supporter is relishing a Tory beating a Lib Dem, which is obnoxious. I find this a somewhat vaticinium ex eventu account of what happened - you cannot seriously argue that Nick Clegg led your party into government for completely altruistic reasons, knowing that the party would be crippled for a generation, to "rescue Britain from the doldrums". Putting aside that much of Britain is still in the doldrums due to some of the dreadful choices made by the coalition government, it was a decision made on the basis of numbers and a belief that the people had voted to give you a seat at the Downing Street table. Nothing wrong in wanting that, you are a political party after all. But please do spare us the encomium. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Jun 18, 2023 19:07:06 GMT
Of course Somerset Council doesn’t include North Somerset or North East Somerset. It never has. They are Avon, always have been and always will be. Only a booliak would think otherwise. CUBA Rather than BOSNIA. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jun 18, 2023 19:07:36 GMT
Seriously, from the party who went into coalition with David Cameron? I am not a Liberal Democrat, I would always prefer the option to choose a Labour candidate. Whilst I wouldn't vote Conservative, I do not know why you think I would prefer to vote Lib Dem instead? The party who put petty rivalries aside and crippled itself for a generation simply so it could help rescue Britain from the doldrums is very much the best placed one to comment on these things, yes. Nobody's saying you should vote Lib Dem. It's the fact that a Labour supporter is relishing a Tory beating a Lib Dem, which is obnoxious.
Nick Clegg did it for self interest, not party interest or Britain's interest.
Britain would have recovered in a similar fashion under Brown as it did under Cameron, there was fag paper difference between the parties in terms of how they would have run the economy back then.
The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg.
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jun 18, 2023 19:23:32 GMT
The party who put petty rivalries aside and crippled itself for a generation simply so it could help rescue Britain from the doldrums is very much the best placed one to comment on these things, yes. Nobody's saying you should vote Lib Dem. It's the fact that a Labour supporter is relishing a Tory beating a Lib Dem, which is obnoxious. You've liked your own post... Someone has to have some taste around here. |
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Post by batman on Jun 18, 2023 19:42:10 GMT
you've had that photo for ages, you've had ample time to bake those beans properly
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jun 18, 2023 19:53:41 GMT
Pass me the bar chart software . . . |
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Post by John Chanin on Jun 18, 2023 19:58:09 GMT
Is this going to be the 'Greens can't win here' slogan? It will make a change at least.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,005
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 18, 2023 20:29:13 GMT
The party who put petty rivalries aside and crippled itself for a generation simply so it could help rescue Britain from the doldrums is very much the best placed one to comment on these things, yes. Nobody's saying you should vote Lib Dem. It's the fact that a Labour supporter is relishing a Tory beating a Lib Dem, which is obnoxious. Nick Clegg did it for self interest, not party interest or Britain's interest.
Britain would have recovered in a similar fashion under Brown as it did under Cameron, there was fag paper difference between the parties in terms of how they would have run the economy back then. The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg.
Labour didn't want it though, they wouldn't deal (that's not to say some of them were very keen, but some other senior figures didn't agree with any kind of deal and wanted to go into opposition). So the choice was Tories one way or the other, and we were damned either way... |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jun 18, 2023 20:42:08 GMT
Is this going to be the 'Greens can't win here' slogan? It will make a change at least. Personally (though it's a long, long time since I've needed to produce a bar chart) "only the Lib Dems can beat the Tories here" will do nicely. The Tories, meanwhile, can try to squeeze the UKIP vote . . .  |
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Post by mattb on Jun 18, 2023 20:45:25 GMT
The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg. [/div][/quote] by sitting on Corbyn's front bench and supporting him, Starmer did more than anyone to facilitate Brexit. |
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bigfatron
Lib Dem
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Post by bigfatron on Jun 18, 2023 20:51:05 GMT
The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg. [/div][/quote] by sitting on Corbyn's front bench and supporting him, Starmer did more than anyone to facilitate Brexit.[/quote] This argument depresses me - Brexit is down to the Tories, their interminable internal war and their total lack of giving a shit about what is best for the country as opposed to what works for the party. It's like people arguing over whether France or the UK played more of a role in appeasing Hitler - Hitler still caused the damn war... |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 18, 2023 20:54:49 GMT
The party who put petty rivalries aside and crippled itself for a generation simply so it could help rescue Britain from the doldrums is very much the best placed one to comment on these things, yes. Nobody's saying you should vote Lib Dem. It's the fact that a Labour supporter is relishing a Tory beating a Lib Dem, which is obnoxious.
Nick Clegg did it for self interest, not party interest or Britain's interest.
Britain would have recovered in a similar fashion under Brown as it did under Cameron, there was fag paper difference between the parties in terms of how they would have run the economy back then.
The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg.
Hmm. Broadly I agree with your point about economic policy and economic recovery - or at least, there's a sight less difference between what the Coalition actually did (as opposed to what Osborne would have liked to have done) and what Brown and Darling said they'd do than Labour has made out ever since. But that being so, how was Clegg going into coalition with Cameron rather than with Brown a matter of personal gain? Clegg gets to be the main junior partner and probable Deputy PM (or, say, Foreign Sec) either way, and the economic policy is (you say) identical. The only difference is that the govt gets a working majority rather than a minority govt or a bare majority if the nationalists could have been shepherded into a coalition. So how is choosing the option that forms a working govt a matter of personal gain rather than national interest? |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 18, 2023 21:00:42 GMT
Is this going to be the 'Greens can't win here' slogan? It will make a change at least. Nah, it's going to be "The Tories can't win here" to stop the Green Surge. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 18, 2023 21:10:57 GMT
[/div][/quote] by sitting on Corbyn's front bench and supporting him, Starmer did more than anyone to facilitate Brexit.[/quote]
This argument depresses me - Brexit is down to the Tories, their interminable internal war and their total lack of giving a shit about what is best for the country as opposed to what works for the party.
It's like people arguing over whether France or the UK played more of a role in appeasing Hitler - Hitler still caused the damn war...[/quote] Couldn't agree more. But in my book, the bloke who did most to facilitate Brexit isn't even British let alone a Tory or come to that a Kipper - he's a nonagenarian Aussie with US citizenship and a massive chip on his shoulder about Britain. I suspect he despises the Tories as much as he does the rest of us, with the possible exception of a grudging respect for Maggie Thatcher. |
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Post by greenchristian on Jun 18, 2023 21:16:34 GMT
What else do you expect from the Labservative duopoly. if any comment in this thread is moronic, this one is much closer to being moronic than europeanlefty's comment. Since they returned to power at Westminster in 2010, the Tories have attempted to rig the boundary changes in their favour, brought in voter suppression laws, and brought in laws making it much more difficult for unions (many of which are affiliated to the Labour Party) to go on strike. Previously they attempted to make it more difficult for unions to affiliate to the Party (which backfired). In short, while we are nowhere near where we threaten to get in the USA, where Trumpites ridicule the very thought that voters would ever consider voting against their party, and cry foul at any election reverse - thank goodness - the Tories are perfectly prepared to rig the electoral machine to make it easier for them to carry on, and therefore prevent more Labour MPs from being elected. The idea that there is some sort of duopoly, where Labour & the Tories are presumably supposed to be actively working happily with each other to prevent smaller parties getting in, is so far removed from the truth as to be completely bonkers, the stuff of mad conspiracy theorists. In reality, during this parliament the opposition have been in a de facto informal pact not to tread on each other's toes in by-elections, and for the most part in the forthcoming general election too. It's a shame because Strontium Dog is capable of incisive & intelligent comments. Strontium Dog didn't seem to be implying that all Labour members, or even the party leadership, take the view that it would be better to have no third parties. He was responding to a post by a Labour member/supporter who was literally saying that it would be better for Labour to run a campaign that helps the Conservatives retain the seat than it would be to let the Lib Dems take the seat off the Tories. And his response was simply pointing out that it's not surprising to see that kind of reaction from members of this tribalist wing of Labour (albeit not in the most tactful way). Most of us who have been active in smaller parties (at least in England and Wales) have come across this kind of Labour supporter who are far more hostile towards us than they are toward the Conservatives (even when they direct their worst rhetoric at the Conservatives). If anything in this thread is moronic it's the apparent claim that this kind of Labour supporter doesn't exist when Labour supporters in this very thread have expressed exactly that view.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,755
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jun 18, 2023 21:57:18 GMT
Nick Clegg did it for self interest, not party interest or Britain's interest.
Britain would have recovered in a similar fashion under Brown as it did under Cameron, there was fag paper difference between the parties in terms of how they would have run the economy back then. The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg.
Labour didn't want it though, they wouldn't deal (that's not to say some of them were very keen, but some other senior figures didn't agree with any kind of deal and wanted to go into opposition). So the choice was Tories one way or the other, and we were damned either way... Plus the numbers didn't add up. A Lab+LD coalition would have been blown out of the water by the Conservatives at the first vote. People seem to think that wishes over-rule 315 < 650/2. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Jun 18, 2023 22:15:54 GMT
Given what our boy already admits he did, I am content that he is not fit to be an MP but I do wonder why he and some of the other coke heads in Westminster have never availed themselves of the parliamentary snuff box en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_snuff_box |
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graham
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,344
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Post by graham on Jun 18, 2023 22:31:03 GMT
The one thing Nick Clegg backing the Tories in 2010 caused was Brexit, so well done on saving Britain that way Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg. [/div][/quote] by sitting on Corbyn's front bench and supporting him, Starmer did more than anyone to facilitate Brexit. [/quote][/div]
But not to quite the extent that the LDs supported Austerity and all the misery associated with it.
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