Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 23:22:48 GMT
She got the job! Dear Nadine I am writing to confirm that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has this morning appointed you to be Steward and Bailiff of the Three Hundreds of Chiltern. Your appointment continues until determined by a subsequent appointment to this Stewardship. I will inform the Speaker of the House of Commons next. Best wishes… Has anyone ever been appointed to a stewardship twice? Or even three times? Any ulstermen in the 80s/90s? What about the UK Unionist?
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Post by batman on Aug 31, 2023 8:07:48 GMT
There has been only one UK Unionist MP, Bob McCartney. He did not resign but lost his seat to Lady Sylvia Hermon who at the time was an Ulster Unionist. His increasingly hardline stance was not a good fit with that constituency; when first elected he was very Blair-friendly & centrist in his outlook. It was a self-destructive reset rather reminiscent of that of Chris Williamson.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Aug 31, 2023 8:16:50 GMT
Thanks for this. Just goes to show what nonsense this all is, and the weakness of our democracy being based on convention and the whim of random nonsensical legal decisions that fly in the face of reality. Just let them flat out resign and stop this legal fiction (after all, it can just be changed on a whim...). I have always advocated for a great big reset switch to be hit so this country could eventually enter modern times like the rest of civilization. The fact that MPs can't resign, they don't even have employment contracts, is just symbolic of the Gentlemen's Club way of running the country, an attitude which still anchors us to the days of workhouses and the Empire. Stella Creasey was on a podcast I listen to pointing out that she was told that being given maternity leave would 'cause a constitutional headache', to which she responded, 'first off, I'd like to see the constitution you think would be effected." In response to Dorries, I'd make two immediate changes; add non-attendance having taken the Oath subject to Recall, and allow MPs to just resign without going through the Gormanghast bullshit. I don't trust that our right-wing chums club political establishment would ever allow such radical suggestions. People make a commitment to their electorate when they become MPs, or any other kind of elected official for that matter. There shouldn't be any form of contract, but making it relatively laborious to walk away mid term, in non-emergency situations, is appropriate. We can't have people just up and leaving simply because they are offered more money elsewhere or for the frivolous reasons some councillors make up because they can't hack it.
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,770
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Post by Crimson King on Aug 31, 2023 8:39:58 GMT
Just a thought. Resigning as an MP is a pretty serious matter. People say all sorts of things (or are said to have said all sorts of things) so telling a journalist you are going to resign, having a strop on Twitter or whatever isnt good enough. There has to be a specific form of words delivered to a specific place so there can be no dispute that a resignation has taken place, and when. Whether that is a letter to the leader of the house saying “I resign” or to the chancellor saying “please appoint me to the stewardship etc” is completely irrelevant. I can’t see any benefit from changing things
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Aug 31, 2023 8:45:38 GMT
I have always advocated for a great big reset switch to be hit so this country could eventually enter modern times like the rest of civilization. The fact that MPs can't resign, they don't even have employment contracts, is just symbolic of the Gentlemen's Club way of running the country, an attitude which still anchors us to the days of workhouses and the Empire. I've heard the employment contracts argument several times over the years. For those advocating it, who would be the employer? The House authorities, IPSA, the Crown, an employer of record or something else? How do the notice periods work? And what about redundancy? Is there a collective agreement? Who is responsible for disciplinary action? How does annual leave work? And where is the place of work? What do any variation or mobility clauses look like? Would it simply be a statement of particulars? What are the notice periods? Is there a definition of the role sufficiently flexible not to require a variation clause? What happens if the MP fails to follow a reasonable management request? Everytime I've heard this, I've asked those questions. Not once has the person saying it considered the factors that make up an employment contract. As things stand, any contract would be pretty limited and would need substantial changes to other legislation. And if we don't want legislative changes with knock on effects, then we need some pretty serious root and branch stuff. Otherwise, you'd be...right where we are now.
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Aug 31, 2023 8:56:57 GMT
Just a thought. Resigning as an MP is a pretty serious matter. People say all sorts of things (or are said to have said all sorts of things) so telling a journalist you are going to resign, having a strop on Twitter or whatever isnt good enough. There has to be a specific form of words delivered to a specific place so there can be no dispute that a resignation has taken place, and when. Whether that is a letter to the leader of the house saying “I resign” or to the chancellor saying “please appoint me to the stewardship etc” is completely irrelevant. I can’t see any benefit from changing things Personally I think it should be to the Speaker, as an individual MP they can write what they want but the phrase "I resign immediately", or "I intended to resign on XXth Date" will suffice, they can if they wish have a rant or explain the reasons why but that's largely irrelevant. I also think the Speaker should control the timetable for the resulting by-election and that it should be completed within around 3 months. But I know that I'm in a minority on this forum so will say no more about the timetable. The problem with the current system is and we've seen twice recently (2013 and 2018) Sinn Fein MPs wanting to resign but finding themselves unwilling to ask to be appointed/unwilling to accept the fact that they have been appointed to a position. Not to mention the fact that the press and public find it difficult to understand and it helps fuel the idea that Westminster is out of touch. Are there any other legislature in the world where such a similar arcane system exists?
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Post by greatkingrat on Aug 31, 2023 8:58:24 GMT
Are there any elected officials in the world who do have "employment contracts" of some sort?
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Aug 31, 2023 9:04:25 GMT
Thanks for this. Just goes to show what nonsense this all is, and the weakness of our democracy being based on convention and the whim of random nonsensical legal decisions that fly in the face of reality. Just let them flat out resign and stop this legal fiction (after all, it can just be changed on a whim...). I have always advocated for a great big reset switch to be hit so this country could eventually enter modern times like the rest of civilization. The fact that MPs can't resign, they don't even have employment contracts, is just symbolic of the Gentlemen's Club way of running the country, an attitude which still anchors us to the days of workhouses and the Empire. Stella Creasey was on a podcast I listen to pointing out that she was told that being given maternity leave would 'cause a constitutional headache', to which she responded, 'first off, I'd like to see the constitution you think would be effected." In response to Dorries, I'd make two immediate changes; add non-attendance having taken the Oath subject to Recall, and allow MPs to just resign without going through the Gormanghast bullshit. I don't trust that our right-wing chums club political establishment would ever allow such radical suggestions. I poem too. There once was a psephologist from Preston Tried to create boundaries for Ellesmere Port & Neston It went on for long And came out so wrong Things just wouldn't fit so the last bit had to have lots extra in it, which ruined it all completely so it ended up as Vales of Mersey and Dee, which impressed none.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Aug 31, 2023 9:09:16 GMT
Actual lol
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Aug 31, 2023 9:15:36 GMT
Are there any elected officials in the world who do have "employment contracts" of some sort? Probably not in the why that I (or I assume you) have, but that's not the point, it's got nothing to do a contract which as you say in all likelihood doesn't exist. But they have signed an undertaking to do a role and to be paid for it. If they which that to end, there needs to be a simple and straight forward mechanism for that to stop. The reason we have the current process is because of a 1624 resolution of the House making it illegal for an MP to quit or wilfully give up their seat - which in modern times is just madness.
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Post by stb12 on Aug 31, 2023 9:40:30 GMT
Are there any elected officials in the world who do have "employment contracts" of some sort? Probably not in the why that I (or I assume you) have, but that's not the point, it's got nothing to do a contract which as you say in all likelihood doesn't exist. But they have signed an undertaking to do a role and to be paid for it. If they which that to end, there needs to be a simple and straight forward mechanism for that to stop. The reason we have the current process is because of a 1624 resolution of the House making it illegal for an MP to quit or wilfully give up their seat - which in modern times is just madness. But again does it make any real practical difference? Even in the Sinn Fein situations it after a bit of public back and forth the resignations went through as they wanted Like I said before I don’t have an issue with changing it but really don’t see why it matters that much, I get that the old fashioned symbolism may bother some people but as far as modernising the system goes it seems very trivial to me compared to many other things
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Post by timrollpickering on Aug 31, 2023 11:04:35 GMT
The problem with the current system is and we've seen twice recently (2013 and 2018) Sinn Fein MPs wanting to resign but finding themselves unwilling to ask to be appointed/unwilling to accept the fact that they have been appointed to a position. That's a problem for Sinn Fein MPs not for the system as a whole. We certainly shouldn't change things just to relieve their embarrassment. We shouldn't change things because the quality of political journalism is in decline. As far as the public it's the resignation. Dorries's problem was in taking forever to go not the technicalities.
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Aug 31, 2023 11:12:08 GMT
Sinn Féin did everything right, they say from the start that they're not going to take the Oath, so they can't/won't go through the out of date rigmarole of taking a fictitious job to just resign. The issue is Parliament refusing to modernise. This whole episode is a failure of the system to get with the times.
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Post by carlton43 on Aug 31, 2023 11:44:52 GMT
Sinn Féin did everything right, they say from the start that they're not going to take the Oath, so they can't/won't go through the out of date rigmarole of taking a fictitious job to just resign. The issue is Parliament refusing to modernise. This whole episode is a failure of the system to get with the times. Rule One : The appalling Sinn Fein never did anything right. End of! Rule Two : We are not changing our efficient, historic and interesting parliamentary procedures to suit a pipsqueak in a bus station.
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Post by stb12 on Aug 31, 2023 11:46:23 GMT
I’m still genuinely confused as to how the resignation system has much to do with Dorries dragging it out, even without those processes I don’t think telling the media that you’re resigning could be ever be considered enough and some more formal notice given to a higher figure would be required
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Aug 31, 2023 12:12:10 GMT
I’m happy to accept that some of you are content with the way things are.
I am not. But I’m not going to waste my energy arguing the toss about it on here.
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Post by Wisconsin on Aug 31, 2023 12:20:18 GMT
The current system is absurd. An extremely short private member’s bill to amend the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 could easily introduce the ability to resign through notification to the Speaker, and would sail through parliament if a sensible government were in place. It can probably be done in two or three sections. The bill could even retain the existing routes to placate traditionalists with an unnatural love of the Chiltern Hundreds.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 31, 2023 12:28:05 GMT
For all the shrieking and shouting that it's "absurd" or "nonsense", no-one's really managed to point to any practical problem with the current scheme. If there was one, it was self-generated by the Sinn Féiner distaste for taking even a legal fiction appointment from the British crown, but they seem to have got over that now. Many people like the quaint reminder of the history involved. So why change? What would it achieve?
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Post by stb12 on Aug 31, 2023 12:29:19 GMT
I’m happy to accept that some of you are content with the way things are. I am not. But I’m not going to waste my energy arguing the toss about it on here. It’s 100% not that for me and I don’t feel any attachment to that system, I’m probably playing devils advocate a bit because in practical terms it just seems very trivial and it wouldn’t have made any difference the Dorries situation
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Aug 31, 2023 12:35:15 GMT
I’m happy to accept that some of you are content with the way things are. I am not. But I’m not going to waste my energy arguing the toss about it on here. It’s 100% not that for me and I don’t feel any attachment to that system, I’m probably playing devils advocate a bit because in practical terms it just seems very trivial and it wouldn’t have made any difference the Dorries situation If you combine reform of the resignation process with the calling of the new election the writ could be moved this week (ditto for Rutherglen at the start of Aug) rather than waiting until Parliament returns. I would favour both being part of a 21st century reform act. That's all I'll say on the matter.
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