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Post by Merseymike on Sept 27, 2022 13:40:49 GMT
Generally, much of the media are describing Meloni's party as "far right" because its main predecessor was an actual full-fat fascist party. That's it, basically. No nefarious left-liberal "conspiracy". Have some of the right wingers on here just discovered that mainstream media reporting often isn't totally accurate? Welcome to the club  *Its predecessor’s predecessor Mind you given Italy's somewhat fluid party structure that is unremarkable. I really find it odd that anyone other than someone on the far or hard right would want to defend Meloni or her party |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 13:45:51 GMT
*Its predecessor’s predecessor Mind you given Italy's somewhat fluid party structure that is unremarkable. I really find it odd that anyone other than someone on the far or hard right would want to defend Meloni or her party 1.FDI was created 18 years after MSI disbanded and 4 years after MSI’s successor National Alliance merged into PDL. 2.Maloney seems like a GOP clone tbh. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,925
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 27, 2022 13:52:24 GMT
The likes of boogs must surely know that even some of Thatcher's inner circle were former Stalinists/Trots.
Same with quite a few of the US Neocons and so on, not to mention several on the rightmost edges of New Labour.
People on the far right *can* reform, but greater scepticism about that is maybe understandable since fewer go through a fash "youthful phase".
(though some certainly do)
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 14:55:27 GMT
The likes of boogs must surely know that even some of Thatcher's inner circle were former Stalinists/Trots. Same with quite a few of the US Neocons and so on, not to mention several on the rightmost edges of New Labour. People on the far right *can* reform, but greater scepticism about that is maybe understandable since fewer go through a fash "youthful phase". (though some certainly do) It was clearly a youthful phase for Gianfranco Finni (Meloni’s predecessor) |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Sept 27, 2022 15:50:07 GMT
Am I correct in saying that an Italian voter can't choose a different list party (or slate or grouping or whatever) to their constituency (or equivalent). So you can't vote SNP locally and Green on the list (or Conservative and UKIP etc, to borrow UK parties)? So if your constituency vote is Party A then your regional vote has to be the group that Party A is in unless it is standalone and therefore both votes are for Party A?
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andrea
Non-Aligned
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Post by andrea on Sept 27, 2022 17:03:34 GMT
Am I correct in saying that an Italian voter can't choose a different list party (or slate or grouping or whatever) to their constituency (or equivalent). So you can't vote SNP locally and Green on the list (or Conservative and UKIP etc, to borrow UK parties)? So if your constituency vote is Party A then your regional vote has to be the group that Party A is in unless it is standalone and therefore both votes are for Party A? Correct. We can't split votes between FPTP constituency and PR. |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
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Post by andrea on Sept 27, 2022 17:13:37 GMT
2022 vs 2018 at the Camera dei Deputati (Senate had different electorate in 2018 and it was only for those aged 25+)
Centre-right from 37% to 43.78%
Huge turnaround internally.
FDI goes from 4.35% to 25.99%
Lega goes from 17.35% to 8.77%
Forza Italia goes from 14% to 8.11%
Movimento 5 Stelle from 32.68% to 15.43%
Partito Democratico & allies from 22.45% (but PD & allies + LEU was already at 25.84%) to 26.13%
PD stable. From 18.76 to 19.07%
+Europe from 2.56 to 28.3%
LEU (not allied to PD) polled 3.39% in 2018. Green/Left got 3.63%
Calenda/Renzi got 7.79% in the end.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Sept 27, 2022 17:23:02 GMT
Am I correct in saying that an Italian voter can't choose a different list party (or slate or grouping or whatever) to their constituency (or equivalent). So you can't vote SNP locally and Green on the list (or Conservative and UKIP etc, to borrow UK parties)? So if your constituency vote is Party A then your regional vote has to be the group that Party A is in unless it is standalone and therefore both votes are for Party A? Correct. We can't split votes between FPTP constituency and PR. Presumably this was introduced to try and bring in some stability? |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Sept 27, 2022 17:23:41 GMT
I see that Emma Bonino is out. Were she a UK politician, I'd be chuckling at that.
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 17:27:06 GMT
I have much time for the former Revolutionary Communist Party Claire Fox James Heartfield Brendan O'Neil Munira Mirza my sort of people My mum was a Marxist until 1992-1993 (by 1997 she was a moderate Tory but supported Blair, and has voted Tory in every election since 2005), my grandparents from my father’s side were true socialists until the financial crisis and remained loyal to Labour until they passed away in 2011 (if what my father and my aunt told me about their positions on social issues and sharp turn to the Centre on economic issues in the last years of their lives is true then both would have probably been Tory voters in 2019). |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 17:33:53 GMT
I see that Emma Bonino is out. Were she a UK politician, I'd be chuckling at that. A pro-European liberal (Bonino) losing her seat because another Pro-European Liberal politician (Calenda) took 14% from her while she lost by 3% is hilarious. |
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 27, 2022 17:35:44 GMT
I see that Emma Bonino is out. Were she a UK politician, I'd be chuckling at that. But she's a Liberal!
And also the godmother of Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau.
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 17:44:32 GMT
I see that Emma Bonino is out. Were she a UK politician, I'd be chuckling at that. But she's a Liberal!
And also the godmother of Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau.
And thankfully, Prince Frisco lost his membership of the Dutch Royal House because of Mabel. |
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 27, 2022 17:57:02 GMT
But she's a Liberal!
And also the godmother of Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau.
And thankfully, Prince Frisco lost his membership of the Dutch Royal House because of Mabel. And was killed in an avalanche less than ten years later so it all became a bit moot. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 18:00:44 GMT
Pretty much the difference between me (hard right) and my brother (far right) who does he vote for? Likud as well lol Edit: he made aliyah almost a decade before me and never actually voted in the UK |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 18:09:43 GMT
Well, that undermines my support for Likud. Can't he find some Haredi kiddy fiddlers to vote for to sustain my ingrained beliefs? 1.He claims that he is going to vote RZ (as he is starting to view Likud to be too centrist and machine oriented), but I personally doubt it as he tends to dislike religious parties…. 2.Likud is a massive tent, the party has Liberatians, average drys,populists,conservatives, ultranationalists and Conservative SocDems , with the official ideology being National Liberalism. (Likud decriminalized Sex work and Marijuana consumption for example) |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 18:15:53 GMT
Sort of the reverse Corbyns. Jeremy only qualifies as hard left with grudgingly working within the system, and Piers with his extremely outlandish theories and behaviour just about makes into far left. Me and my brother comparison: Economy: Me - dry with an emphasis on balanced budgets and tilt toward state planning. Brother - populist and a true believer of state capitalism. Society: Me - Small c Con with populist tendencies on things like immigration and reactionary tendencies on things like sovereignty and modesty. Brother - Hardcore reactionary on everything but LGB rights. Democracy: Me - extremely opposed to direct action (but strongly believe in pluralism and freedom of speech for every single person even if he is a neo nazi or a communist), strong believer in the democratic system but mostly in the sense of democratic representation (which is why I tend to defend people like Jezza and Sam Tarry), pluralism and not civil rights and human rights (believe that the definition is way too broad now) and as such would not call myself a liberal Democrat. Brother - supporter of illiberal democracy/electoral autocracy (and the democracy part only because we grew up in a household that treated pluralism and freedom of thought as the most sacred thing of all.) Supremacy: Me - Cultural supremacist on some things, pro-Asian/Jewish/Nigerian on things like education and an extremely proud Jew (even with the piss stain that is American Jewry). Brother - same (from what I know) @boogieeck , here is the actual comparison I’ve made as my brother would probably be described as someone on the softer side of the far right. |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
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Post by andrea on Sept 27, 2022 18:20:49 GMT
I would point out that Bruno Tabacci lives for another term
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Post by rcronald on Sept 27, 2022 18:23:44 GMT
I would point out that Bruno Tabacci lives for another term Do you expect Lupi,Toti and Brugnaro to merge back into FI? |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,839 
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Post by Georg Ebner on Sept 28, 2022 4:37:54 GMT
Can andrea or anyone else provide a link to the rawNumbers and/or % in a workable format (EXCEL or CSV), please? Perfect would be also of former elections. Have you made any progress with this? Thanks for asking. Unfortunately no. Months ago i contacted their Home Office, but they came up with not more than their archive, which i had detected myself and where there is nothing in EXCEL/CSV. Copying&pasting it into tables would be endless. |
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