The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,929
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 26, 2022 11:45:05 GMT
This distinction between far right and hard right has come up a lot here recently and seems significant and important to some posters. But to me, and I suspect most others, the two terms are interchangeable, and I can’t even ever remember what the difference is supposed to be. Personally, I would describe "far-" to indicate those who use direct action instead of participating within the democratic and legal framework. So I would class XR as "far-green". But that still leaves a bit of a grey area with parties like the BNP (or indeed their left wing equivalents) who do/did take electoral politics fairly seriously. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 11:58:42 GMT
Campania 1 is the only Chamber of Deputies constituency where the FdI-FI-Lega alliance did not top the poll (M5S did, surprisingly). Technically speaking, the right only won Aosta Valley in the Senate. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 12:00:34 GMT
This distinction between far-right and hard-right has come up a lot here recently and seems significant and important to some posters. But to me, and I suspect most others, the two terms are interchangeable, and I can’t even ever remember what the difference is supposed to be. The difference matters a lot to me because they are often diametrically opposite to each other. Hard Right in economic terms if Thatcherite in UK terms, Far Right is often to the left of the current Labour party, more in tune with Momentum. Hard Right supports free enterprise, and far right supports state direction of the economy. In social terms, the Hard Right is socially conservative, which in practice means they object to every change but never want to reverse them. The far-right wants radical social change, much but by no means all of it to reverse changes The hard right accept democratic norms, probably more so than any other group as they reject direct action, protests, boycotts, all that sort of thing, as being bad-mannered. The far-right reject democratic norms Racial supremacism is the thing of the far right. Cultural supremacism is the thing of the hard right. They are not the same thing. Irredentism is of the far right, not the hard right The Liberal Democrats of Russia are far right The Liberal Democrats of Japan are Hard right Pretty much the difference between me (hard right) and my brother (far right) |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 12:14:11 GMT
Former FI driver Fittipaldi (FDI-FI-Lega joint list) wasn't elected in South America Senatorial constituency. The only seat goes to current MP Mario Alejandro Borghese of Italians Abroad Movement.
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 12:32:01 GMT
SENATE
60.348 polling places out of 60.399
FDI 26.03%
Lega 8.87%
FI 8.28%
Noi Moderati 0.89%
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total 44.07%
PD 18.96%
Green/Left 3.53%
+Europe 2.94%
Impegno Civico 0.56%
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Total 25.89%
M5S 15.53%
Calenda/Renzi 7.73%
Threshold is 3%. So +Europe won't get seats. Emma Bonino lost her FPTP constituency in Rome too.
FPTP constituencies (no Trentino, Aosta and Italians Abroad)
FDI-Lega-FI-Moderati 46
PD+Green/Left+Europe 5 (2 out of 5 are not even PD)
M5M 5
South calls North (Messina's former mayor list) 1
To be completed: 10 (all going to CR)
Aosta: Centre-Right
Trentino: 2 SVP, 2 Centre-Left, 2 Centre-Right
Italians abroad: 1 to Italians Abroad Movement. The other 3 likely to PD
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 12:36:30 GMT
CAMERA
61.379 out of 61.417
FDI 26.01
Lega 8.78
FI 8.12
Noi Moderati 0.91
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total 43.82
PD 19.06
Green/Left 3.63
+Europe 2.83
Impegno Civico 0.6
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Total 26.12
M5S 15.42
Calenda/Renzi 7.78
FPTP constituencies (no Aosta and Italians Abroad)
FDI-Lega-FI-Moderati 112
PD+Green/Left+Europe 11
M5M 10
South calls North (Messina's former mayor list) 1
To be completed: 10 (Left is expected to get 1 of the last 10 as Luca Pastorino is leading by 1,200 votes in one of Genova constituencies with only one polling place left to be added)
Aosta: Centre-Left
Italians abroad: 1 to Italians Abroad Movement, 1 PD elected so far. Other 3 constituencies are likely to split 1 PD, 1 Right each.
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 12:40:35 GMT
House
Italians in UK
PD 36.59% (27,679 votes)
Lega+FDI+FI joint list 18.21% (13,766)
M5S 12,90% (8,752)
Calenda 11,85% (8,957)
Green Left 9.93% (7,511)
+Europe 6.17% (4,665)
Movement for Freedom 2.88% (2,177)
Impegno Civico 1.48% (1,117)
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 13:19:09 GMT
SENATE 60.348 polling places out of 60.399 FDI 26.03% Lega 8.87% FI 8.28% Noi Moderati 0.89% ______________ total 44.07% PD 18.96% Green/Left 3.53% +Europe 2.94% Impegno Civico 0.56% ___________________ Total 25.89% M5S 15.53% Calenda/Renzi 7.73% Threshold is 3%. So +Europe won't get seats. Emma Bonino lost her FPTP constituency in Rome too. FPTP constituencies (no Trentino, Aosta and Italians Abroad) FDI-Lega-FI-Moderati 46 PD+Green/Left+Europe 5 (2 out of 5 are not even PD) M5M 5 South calls North (Messina's former mayor list) 1 To be completed: 10 (all going to CR) Aosta: Centre-Right Trentino: 2 SVP, 2 Centre-Left, 2 Centre-Right Italians abroad: 1 to Italians Abroad Movement. The other 3 likely to PD If the threshold is 3% then the proportional portion should be calculated as CDX - 43.18% (48.55%) CSX - 22.49% (25.29%) M5S - 15.53% (17.46%) CCX - 7.73% (8.69%) but per region? |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 13:36:23 GMT
SENATE 60.348 polling places out of 60.399 FDI 26.03% Lega 8.87% FI 8.28% Noi Moderati 0.89% ______________ total 44.07% PD 18.96% Green/Left 3.53% +Europe 2.94% Impegno Civico 0.56% ___________________ Total 25.89% M5S 15.53% Calenda/Renzi 7.73% Threshold is 3%. So +Europe won't get seats. Emma Bonino lost her FPTP constituency in Rome too. FPTP constituencies (no Trentino, Aosta and Italians Abroad) FDI-Lega-FI-Moderati 46 PD+Green/Left+Europe 5 (2 out of 5 are not even PD) M5M 5 South calls North (Messina's former mayor list) 1 To be completed: 10 (all going to CR) Aosta: Centre-Right Trentino: 2 SVP, 2 Centre-Left, 2 Centre-Right Italians abroad: 1 to Italians Abroad Movement. The other 3 likely to PD If the threshold is 3% then the proportional portion should be calculated as CDX - 43.18% (48.55%) CSX - 22.49% (25.29%) M5S - 15.53% (17.46%) CCX - 7.73% (8.69%) but per region? I believe that the allocation is done region by region considering only coalitions and lists above threshold at national level. First they distribute seats to coalitions and lists not in coalitions. Then the total assigned to a coalition is divided between lists of said coalition. On the House, on the other hand, the seats are distributed based on national shares among the coalitions and lists above threshold, then within each coalition among the coalitioned lists. Then through a weird system I refuse to justify/understand/explain, seats won by each party are allocated to circumscription and from circumscription to plurinominal constituencies. Each circumscription and plurinominal constituency have an exact total number of seats, there is a weird system that makes the total match the national total within each area. Lists between 1 and 2.99% are counted for the coalition totals. Lists below 1% are not considered. Yes, it doesn't make sense. But we don't pretend this system makes any sense. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 13:56:25 GMT
If the threshold is 3% then the proportional portion should be calculated as CDX - 43.18% (48.55%) CSX - 22.49% (25.29%) M5S - 15.53% (17.46%) CCX - 7.73% (8.69%) but per region? I believe that the allocation is done region by region considering only coalitions and lists above threshold at national level. First they distribute seats to coalitions and lists not in coalitions. Then the total assigned to a coalition is divided between lists of said coalition. On the House, on the other hand, the seats are distributed based on national shares among the coalitions and lists above threshold, then within each coalition among the coalitioned lists. Then through a weird system I refuse to justify/understand/explain, seats won by each party are allocated to circumscription and from circumscription to plurinominal constituencies. Each circumscription and plurinominal constituency have an exact total number of seats, there is a weird system that makes the total match the national total within each area. Lists between 1 and 2.99% are counted for the coalition totals. Lists below 1% are not considered. Yes, it doesn't make sense. But we don't pretend this system makes any sense. So in Eastern Emilia Romagna : Senate : 4 seats CDX - 39.8% (25.27%FDI , 8.47%Lega , 6.06%FI) 2FDI CSX - 34.5% ( 27.15%PD , 4.13%AVS , 3.22%+E) 2PD M5S - 10.16% Azione - 8.57% 1 - CDX 2 - CSX 3 - CDX 4 - CSX |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 14:16:50 GMT
I believe that the allocation is done region by region considering only coalitions and lists above threshold at national level. First they distribute seats to coalitions and lists not in coalitions. Then the total assigned to a coalition is divided between lists of said coalition. On the House, on the other hand, the seats are distributed based on national shares among the coalitions and lists above threshold, then within each coalition among the coalitioned lists. Then through a weird system I refuse to justify/understand/explain, seats won by each party are allocated to circumscription and from circumscription to plurinominal constituencies. Each circumscription and plurinominal constituency have an exact total number of seats, there is a weird system that makes the total match the national total within each area. Lists between 1 and 2.99% are counted for the coalition totals. Lists below 1% are not considered. Yes, it doesn't make sense. But we don't pretend this system makes any sense. So in Eastern Emilia Romagna : Senate : 4 seats CDX - 39.8% (25.27%FDI , 8.47%Lega , 6.06%FI) 2FDI CSX - 34.5% ( 27.15%PD , 4.13%AVS , 3.22%+E) 2PD M5S - 10.16% Azione - 8.57% 1 - CDX 2 - CSX 3 - CDX 4 - CSX Yes, I think it is the way it is done. Big parties are favored in the Senate system because even if you are over 3%, it is difficult to get a seat in small regions because there are not many seats in first place to distribute. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 15:40:38 GMT
CAMERA Italians abroad: 1 to Italians Abroad Movement, 1 PD elected so far. Other 3 constituencies are likely to split 1 PD, 1 Right each. I was wrong because I forgot Europe had 3 seats. So 1 PD, 1 Right, 1 M5S. Africa-Asia-Oceania have only 1 seat and it will go PD. North America is 1-1. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 15:49:37 GMT
CAMERA Italians abroad: 1 to Italians Abroad Movement, 1 PD elected so far. Other 3 constituencies are likely to split 1 PD, 1 Right each. I was wrong because I forgot Europe had 3 seats. So 1 PD, 1 Right, 1 M5S. Africa-Asia-Oceania have only 1 seat and it will go PD. North America is 1-1. How did M5S get the 3rd seat? Their vote share is 1/3 of the Centre Right and Centre Left lists. |
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Post by minionofmidas on Sept 26, 2022 16:23:15 GMT
I was wrong because I forgot Europe had 3 seats. So 1 PD, 1 Right, 1 M5S. Africa-Asia-Oceania have only 1 seat and it will go PD. North America is 1-1. How did M5S get the 3rd seat? Their vote share is 1/3 of the Centre Right and Centre Left lists. If it's over - even one vote over - 1/3 of the leading list then that seat distribution is correct under Ste Lague. (With D'Hondt you'd need half and with Hare all it takes is a retard of less than 33.3 points, but then neither system is remotely suited to constituencies this small. Of course there are also a number of ad hoc variants in existence; I'm too lazy to look up what Italy uses.) |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 16:30:59 GMT
How did M5S get the 3rd seat? Their vote share is 1/3 of the Centre Right and Centre Left lists. If it's over - even one vote over - 1/3 of the leading list then that seat distribution is correct under Ste Lague. (With D'Hondt you'd need half and with Hare all it takes is a retard of less than 33.3 points, but then neither system is remotely suited to constituencies this small. Of course there are also a number of ad hoc variants in existence; I'm too lazy to look up what Italy uses.) PD - 31.34% CDX - 28.38% M5S - 11.57% |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Sept 26, 2022 16:36:58 GMT
If it's over - even one vote over - 1/3 of the leading list then that seat distribution is correct under Ste Lague. (With D'Hondt you'd need half and with Hare all it takes is a retard of less than 33.3 points, but then neither system is remotely suited to constituencies this small. Of course there are also a number of ad hoc variants in existence; I'm too lazy to look up what Italy uses.) PD - 31.34% CDX - 28.38% M5S - 11.57% 31.34/3=10.45 |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 16:39:28 GMT
PD - 31.34% CDX - 28.38% M5S - 11.57% 31.34/3=10.45 Yes, I noticed it wasn’t exactly 1/3 but PD clearly deserve the 2nd seat. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 16:40:28 GMT
I was wrong because I forgot Europe had 3 seats. So 1 PD, 1 Right, 1 M5S. Africa-Asia-Oceania have only 1 seat and it will go PD. North America is 1-1. How did M5S get the 3rd seat? Their vote share is 1/3 of the Centre Right and Centre Left lists. I just re-read everything. We don't use de Hondt. We use the quotients methods total number of votes in Europe: 567,493 567493 divided by the number of seats (3): 189,164.3333 Number of votes of PD divided by 189,164.3333=0.94 Number of votes of Right divided by 189,164.3333=0.85 Number of votes of M5S divided by 189,164.3333=0.34 So nobody have full seat (all below 1)...so we get the highest fractions...... |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 26, 2022 16:48:09 GMT
How did M5S get the 3rd seat? Their vote share is 1/3 of the Centre Right and Centre Left lists. I just re-read everything. We don't use de Hondt. We use the quotients methods total number of votes in Europe: 567,493 567493 divided by the number of seats (3): 189,164.3333 Number of votes of PD divided by 189,164.3333=0.94 Number of votes of Right divided by 189,164.3333=0.85 Number of votes of M5S divided by 189,164.3333=0.34 So nobody have full seat (all below 1)...so we get the highest fractions...... But both the right and PD got more then double the votes of M5S |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Sept 26, 2022 16:55:17 GMT
I just re-read everything. We don't use de Hondt. We use the quotients methods total number of votes in Europe: 567,493 567493 divided by the number of seats (3): 189,164.3333 Number of votes of PD divided by 189,164.3333=0.94 Number of votes of Right divided by 189,164.3333=0.85 Number of votes of M5S divided by 189,164.3333=0.34 So nobody have full seat (all below 1)...so we get the highest fractions...... But both the right and PD got more then double the votes of M5S it is a system that doesn't make any sense for a constituency of 3 with no thresholds....but those writing electoral lows in Italy are not deep thinkers. The previous one was called "Porcellum". In your previous Emilia example works better because it is 1.7, 1.48, 0.43, 0.36. So 1 and 1 automatic allocations + the 0.7 and 0.48 from the top 2 coalitions. |
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