johnloony
Conservative
Posts: 24,534
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Post by johnloony on Jun 24, 2022 12:49:07 GMT
Being an irrelevance with only morons like Steve Radford left is an actual blow for a party. Glass houses. At least the Liberals are actual liberals tbf. The Lib Dems seem to have repudiated much of what liberalism is supposed to stand for. You're now the party of EU fanaticism, managed democracy, censorship and NIMBYism. Your revoke policy was also just downright offensive and is an affront that's difficult to forget. I say all that as someone who votes Lib Dem on the AMS constituency and for my second STV pref. I am not instinctively hostile, unlike many in either my party or Labour. I left the Liberal Party because I discovered that it (or, at least, the then leadership of it) was not liberal. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jun 24, 2022 13:18:10 GMT
I've just looked at the Green candidate's twitter feed. Oh my. Apart from all the obvious stuff, has retweeted something from the RMT that is demonstrably not the case, and would be blindingly obvious to anyone who can do basic maths. Seems to be running to be co-chair of the Green Party exec, complete with a policy of "putting a stop to poor management decisions harming the party." Candidate selection might be a priority, no? But to be fair, are you really a target for a red-green given you are committed to market economics? I'm not, and I'm definitely not the target for a watermelon, but I could be a target for the Greens more generally. I'm relatively well educated* as well as pretty numerate and data driven which the Greens often claim to be, I'm receptive to green tech (in the sense that I'm actively keen on it rather than just the 'yeah it's a good idea in principle' category that everyone is in) and believe that environmental considerations need to have greater prominence for both individuals and the economy as a whole. Where I disagree with the Greens is, firstly, on 'green economics' which, even to a heterodox economist like me, is utter bullshit (it is definitely not a school in its own right and is riddled with policy based evidence making and solutions in search of a problem) and secondly the level of state involvement, meddling and regulation that would be necessary to achieve the GPEW policy platform, as well as the tendency that attracts. We both agree that there isn't enough choice in politics and if there was a market focused green party I would be foursquare behind them. There isn't really space for me in the Greens as things stand. *using the greenhert definition of not being an idiot, although graham probably thinks I'm educationally subnormal. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Jun 24, 2022 13:30:58 GMT
Glass houses. At least the Liberals are actual liberals tbf. The Lib Dems seem to have repudiated much of what liberalism is supposed to stand for. I don't dictate to you tell you what conservatism should be. You have no idea what liberalism is and it would be better if you didn't just guess what is. The key issue here is that there are a number of politically engaged people who are liberals, and who are also democrats, who aren't in the Liberal Democrats. Ultimately, it is up to the Lib Dems to attract them and, right now, your party isn't. I'm a liberal, a position I have spent time thinking about and can rationalise, and don't see a liberal party to attract me. I absolutely claim the right to say what liberalism is because the tenets of it are something that I'm personally signed up to and which guide parts of my life. |
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Wakefield
Jun 24, 2022 13:40:06 GMT
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 24, 2022 13:40:06 GMT
Glass houses. At least the Liberals are actual liberals tbf. The Lib Dems seem to have repudiated much of what liberalism is supposed to stand for. I don't dictate to you tell you what conservatism should be. You have no idea what liberalism is and it would be better if you didn't just guess what is. What a telling, childish response. |
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jun 24, 2022 13:42:14 GMT
I have been told I'm not liberal a few times. I find that attitude hard to reconcile with my political beliefs, which are essentially to support things that I think will improve people's freedoms, and oppose things that I think will reduce them. So on that basis, I take claims about who is and isn't a liberal with a hefty pinch of salt.
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Post by devolutionist on Jun 24, 2022 13:50:15 GMT
The Lib Dems did practically no campaigning, hence their atrocious result.
I do wonder whether they'd have done at least a little more, in hindsight, if they considered that falling behind Reform was a real prospect. That has to be a little embarrassing.
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Wakefield
Jun 24, 2022 13:54:06 GMT
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Post by mrsir on Jun 24, 2022 13:54:06 GMT
The Lib Dems did practically no campaigning, hence their atrocious result. I do wonder whether they'd have done at least a little more, in hindsight, if they considered that falling behind Reform was a real prospect. That has to be a little embarrassing. They've finished behind TUSC and Heritage already this Parliament which is much more embarrassing than Reform (who they have finished below in a number of by-elections now) they appear to have no shame. |
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Wakefield
Jun 24, 2022 13:56:28 GMT
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 24, 2022 13:56:28 GMT
But to be fair, are you really a target for a red-green given you are committed to market economics? I'm not, and I'm definitely not the target for a watermelon, but I could be a target for the Greens more generally. I'm relatively well educated* as well as pretty numerate and data driven which the Greens often claim to be, I'm receptive to green tech (in the sense that I'm actively keen on it rather than just the 'yeah it's a good idea in principle' category that everyone is in) and believe that environmental considerations need to have greater prominence for both individuals and the economy as a whole. Where I disagree with the Greens is, firstly, on 'green economics' which, even to a heterodox economist like me, is utter bullshit (it is definitely not a school in its own right and is riddled with policy based evidence making and solutions in search of a problem) and secondly the level of state involvement, meddling and regulation that would be necessary to achieve the GPEW policy platform, as well as the tendency that attracts. We both agree that there isn't enough choice in politics and if there was a market focused green party I would be foursquare behind them. There isn't really space for me in the Greens as things stand. *using the greenhert definition of not being an idiot, although graham probably thinks I'm educationally subnormal. Yes, I think that is fair. Ash Routh is definitely a watermelon though so wouldn't appeal to you. I'm a sociologist not an economist but I think it's fair to say that the idea of a green economics which isn't rooted in a wider green philosophy and sociology rather that being a pure economic policy isn't really inline with their holistic approach. |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Jun 24, 2022 13:57:59 GMT
The Lib Dems did practically no campaigning, hence their atrocious result. I do wonder whether they'd have done at least a little more, in hindsight, if they considered that falling behind Reform was a real prospect. That has to be a little embarrassing. True, but we’ve gained three MPs in the last 53 weeks, so I’ll take a little bit of embarrassment 😉 |
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Post by devolutionist on Jun 24, 2022 13:58:02 GMT
The Lib Dems did practically no campaigning, hence their atrocious result. I do wonder whether they'd have done at least a little more, in hindsight, if they considered that falling behind Reform was a real prospect. That has to be a little embarrassing. They've finished behind TUSC and Heritage already this Parliament which is much more embarrassing than Reform (who they have finished below in a number of by-elections now) they appear to have no shame. It wasn't a slur against them, I wasn't trying to be negative, I like the local Lib Dems (inc. their candidate). Weren't far behind Reform though, wouldn't have taken much. May have toned the campaigning down just a little too much, even when considering the understandable desire to punish Johnson's Tories & to concentrate resources in Tiverton. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 24, 2022 14:00:38 GMT
I don't dictate to you tell you what conservatism should be. You have no idea what liberalism is and it would be better if you didn't just guess what is. The key issue here is that there are a number of politically engaged people who are liberals, and who are also democrats, who aren't in the Liberal Democrats. Ultimately, it is up to the Lib Dems to attract them and, right now, your party isn't. I'm a liberal, a position I have spent time thinking about and can rationalise, and don't see a liberal party to attract me. I absolutely claim the right to say what liberalism is because the tenets of it are something that I'm personally signed up to and which guide parts of my life. But you are a particular type of liberal. The thing is there are other traditions who are also regarded as liberal - and in the UK this goes way back to the classical/ new divide. I'd say that Hobhouse's positive liberalism has far more presence in the LibDems than the negative liberal classical approach which has tended to find its home in conservative parties. Hayek always stated he was not a conservative but his most prominent political disciple in this country certainly regarded herself as exactly that. And then in America the term liberal is clearly associated with their version of the left which is largely non-socialist. Much of Europe has right liberal and left liberal parties, The Netherlands the obvious example |
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Post by devolutionist on Jun 24, 2022 14:02:10 GMT
Lab 13,166 (47.9%) Con 8,241 (30.0%) Akbar 2,090 (7.6%) Yorkshire 1,182 (4.3%) Green 587 (2.1%) Reform UK 513 (1.9%) LD 508 (1.8%) The order of this top 7 is precisely what the Smarkets exchange odds had suggested the day before polling day (as in, it had the favourites for 3rd in that precise order from 3rd to 7th). Quite impressive. I put my money on too early, when YP were favourites for third, before witnessing myself how much money/effort Akbar was putting into his campaign. |
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Wakefield
Jun 24, 2022 14:04:41 GMT
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 24, 2022 14:04:41 GMT
The Lib Dems did practically no campaigning, hence their atrocious result. I do wonder whether they'd have done at least a little more, in hindsight, if they considered that falling behind Reform was a real prospect. That has to be a little embarrassing. No, because their aim is to gain some seats in the next election so they will take advantage of those opportunities. In doing so they wish to make a hung parliament more likely and achieve electoral reform |
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Post by devolutionist on Jun 24, 2022 14:25:46 GMT
The Lib Dems did practically no campaigning, hence their atrocious result. I do wonder whether they'd have done at least a little more, in hindsight, if they considered that falling behind Reform was a real prospect. That has to be a little embarrassing. No, because their aim is to gain some seats in the next election so they will take advantage of those opportunities. In doing so they wish to make a hung parliament more likely and achieve electoral reform They looked a bit cheesed off post-result to be honest, I was there. |
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Wakefield
Jun 24, 2022 14:28:58 GMT
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 24, 2022 14:28:58 GMT
No, because their aim is to gain some seats in the next election so they will take advantage of those opportunities. In doing so they wish to make a hung parliament more likely and achieve electoral reform They looked a bit cheesed off to be honest, I was there. Well, yes, but they are going to have to get used to it if they want to achieve their aims - more seats via targeting and electoral reform |
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 24, 2022 14:30:55 GMT
I don't dictate to you tell you what conservatism should be. You have no idea what liberalism is and it would be better if you didn't just guess what is. Well there's your trouble. I do dictate what a dog is, what a cat is, what a punch is, what a kick is, what a liberal is, what a conservative is, what a man is and what a woman is, because there are all fully established concepts. It's not Alice in Wonderland, you don't get to define what words mean whatever you mean them to. Predictably your post was liked by other former liberals who are no longer all that liberal Only there have been two distinct schools of liberalism since the early 20th century - classical and new liberalism. Both are legitimate but have very different approaches to what liberalism actually is |
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jun 24, 2022 15:14:45 GMT
I don't think it does anyone any favours to try and conflate scientific definitions with philosophical ones.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 24, 2022 15:18:26 GMT
Indeed. And two different schools of what a woman is. Irrelevant. It is well established on all levels that both classical liberalism and new liberalism are valid expressions of liberal ideology. If you want to try and deny that then you need to inform all political philosophers that they have it wrong and only your definition is the valid one. |
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Post by devolutionist on Jun 24, 2022 15:26:38 GMT
NIP are being very quiet on twitter, having been very noisy pre-election and proceeding to lose to both Britain First and the Monster Raving Loony Party.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Wakefield
Jun 24, 2022 17:02:05 GMT
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Post by neilm on Jun 24, 2022 17:02:05 GMT
What's the name of the chap in Northern Ireland that Jayda Fransen hangs around with? I can't remember.
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