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Post by carlton43 on Jul 29, 2022 15:53:25 GMT
What do you think is the best argument against democracy? & @boogieeck That is amazingly self-revealing of you. |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 29, 2022 17:27:34 GMT
My negative thoughts on Tony Benn come from 50 years ago or more. Churchill once said “The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” .... I suspect Tony Benn thought exactly the same thing, he certainly acted that way. (btw. I do not agree with Churchill)
What Tony Benn said and what he did were different, he talked a lot about respect for the the opinions of the masses in the form of popular democracy. But with the obvious intention of ignoring said popular opinion. These were the days of CND marches on Sunday and signing off contracts to build nuclear weapon systems on Monday. What do you think is the best argument against democracy? The demos.  |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 29, 2022 22:05:46 GMT
What do you think is the best argument against democracy? & @boogieeck At least they consider issues (might or might not agree with the conclusions they reach). A far, far bigger downside are the people who are utterly ignorant of any political thought but still turn out to vote on the basis of . . . well, what exactly? |
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slon
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Post by slon on Jul 30, 2022 9:40:04 GMT
At least they consider issues (might or might not agree with the conclusions they reach). A far, far bigger downside are the people who are utterly ignorant of any political thought but still turn out to vote on the basis of . . . well, what exactly? The problem is not ignorance of the many, it is wrong headedness of the few Plato said something similar |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 30, 2022 10:04:13 GMT
At least they consider issues (might or might not agree with the conclusions they reach). A far, far bigger downside are the people who are utterly ignorant of any political thought but still turn out to vote on the basis of . . . well, what exactly? The problem is not ignorance of the many, it is wrong headedness of the few Plato said something similar
So are we saying
a) Those of a minority opinion are wrong
or b) Those who don't agree with you are wrong.
It makes a big difference as a) means we keep the railways and b) means they are abolished.
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slon
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Post by slon on Jul 30, 2022 11:01:53 GMT
The problem is not ignorance of the many, it is wrong headedness of the few Plato said something similar
So are we saying
a) Those of a minority opinion are wrong
or b) Those who don't agree with you are wrong.
It makes a big difference as a) means we keep the railways and b) means they are abolished.
Why do you keep going on about railways? |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 30, 2022 11:02:53 GMT
So are we saying
a) Those of a minority opinion are wrong
or b) Those who don't agree with you are wrong.
It makes a big difference as a) means we keep the railways and b) means they are abolished.
Why do you keep going on about railways?
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john07
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Post by john07 on Aug 1, 2022 21:10:03 GMT
So are we saying a) Those of a minority opinion are wrong
or b) Those who don't agree with you are wrong. It makes a big difference as a) means we keep the railways and b) means they are abolished.
Why do you keep going on about railways? It takes one to know one. |
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Clark
Forum Regular
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Post by Clark on Aug 17, 2022 11:53:18 GMT
How much better would've David Milliband done as Labour leader instead of his brother?
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 17, 2022 11:56:40 GMT
Unlikely to have been *much* better, and not beyond the bounds of possibility (though not saying it is *likely*) that he could have done worse.
The way a certain element on the Labour right treat him as a "Great Lost Leader" is almost amusing.
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hengog
Conservative
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Post by hengog on Aug 17, 2022 12:33:01 GMT
My guess would be - a bit better, possibly quite a bit. I certainly thought so at the time.
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sirbenjamin
IFP
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Post by sirbenjamin on Aug 17, 2022 15:08:37 GMT
My guess would be - a bit better, possibly quite a bit. I certainly thought so at the time. Would he have done well enough to lead a government after the 2015 GE? Or well enough to ensure that a continuation of the coalition remained in government? Albeit with far fewer LDs? Or just well enough to get a 2017 style result two years early? I would think probably the last one. |
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 17, 2022 16:57:53 GMT
Unlikely to have been *much* better, and not beyond the bounds of possibility (though not saying it is *likely*) that he could have done worse. The way a certain element on the Labour right treat him as a "Great Lost Leader" is almost amusing. I suspect that he is likely to have done a bit better, since he would have had more consistent messaging. Ed spent his entire term as leader being unsure whether he was trying to pitch a continuation New Labour, or a return to a more left-wing approach. Sticking consistently to one or the other would likely have played better with voters than the less coherent approach that we actually got from his era of Labour. |
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Post by Merseymike on Aug 17, 2022 17:03:06 GMT
I think the austerity-lite economic policy would have been much the same and he would have been far too keen to enter into further wars which would have proved very divisive.
He didn't impress me and he left behind a CLP in an appalling state when he resigned
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 21, 2022 10:08:37 GMT
Unlikely to have been *much* better, and not beyond the bounds of possibility (though not saying it is *likely*) that he could have done worse. The way a certain element on the Labour right treat him as a "Great Lost Leader" is almost amusing. I suspect that he is likely to have done a bit better, since he would have had more consistent messaging. Ed spent his entire term as leader being unsure whether he was trying to pitch a continuation New Labour, or a return to a more left-wing approach. Sticking consistently to one or the other would likely have played better with voters than the less coherent approach that we actually got from his era of Labour. Indeed. I've said before that if they'd continuously hammered the cost of living stuff, which was getting Labour somewhere, then the result might have been different. Instead, he ditched that and started banging on about 'our NHS' and the 'bedroom tax' which just doesn't get as many votes. He was woolly headed: partly because he was trying to appeal to the people who thought he was left wing and partly because he needed to appeal to people who were worried about Red Ed; partly because he wasn't an election fighter who had cut his teeth in an unwinnable or indeed any real world election so had no understanding of how to win; partly because he thought he was an academic after that spell at Harvard and simply couldn't relate to people; and most seriously because he didn't really know why he wanted to be leader and didn't have the killer instinct to be PM. Neither brother appeared to have a really raging appetite for the top job: ultimately that means you won't win. Brown on the other hand really wanted the job (for all sorts of reasons) but didn't quite have the killer instinct. People see through that. On the plus side, I refurbished a flat around the time of the 2010 leadership election and won enough on Miliband to pay for new washer dryer and most of a dishwasher. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 21, 2022 10:15:10 GMT
I've just remembered that allegedly Ed M didn't understand why he was occasionally referred to as 'Glenn' and had to have the joke explained.
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Post by finsobruce on Aug 21, 2022 10:28:18 GMT
I've just remembered that allegedly Ed M didn't understand why he was occasionally referred to as 'Glenn' and had to have the joke explained. He was in space but never landed on the moon? |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 21, 2022 10:30:11 GMT
I've just remembered that allegedly Ed M didn't understand why he was occasionally referred to as 'Glenn' and had to have the joke explained. He was in space but never landed on the moon? Maybe he wasn't in the mood. |
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Post by finsobruce on Aug 21, 2022 10:34:08 GMT
He was in space but never landed on the moon? Maybe he wasn't in the mood. Not good enough at blowing his own trombone? |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 21, 2022 10:41:18 GMT
Maybe he wasn't in the mood. Not good enough at blowing his own trombone? An advantage when one is on an American Patrol. |
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