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Post by rcronald on Mar 23, 2022 14:07:00 GMT
I am liberal. I joined the Conservative Party because I’m liberal. I resigned from the Liberal Party because it was not liberal, and its then leadership was illiberal. So if the Conservative party is liberal, who represents the views of Conservatives? since Cameron took over in the mid 00s,no one. that is why Ukip rose in the early/mid 2010s because Cameron was not a Conservative and Osborne was anti-conservative, Boris gave us some glimpses of hope early in his term, but he turned out to be an economically centrist version of David Cameron. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Mar 23, 2022 14:50:05 GMT
So if the Conservative party is liberal, who represents the views of Conservatives? since Cameron took over in the mid 00s,no one. that is why Ukip rose in the early/mid 2010s because Cameron was not a Conservative and Osborne was anti-conservative, Boris gave us some glimpses of hope early in his term, but he turned out to be an economically centrist version of David Cameron. I think you are confusing Conservatism and trying to turn back the clock into the past. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 23, 2022 15:13:28 GMT
since Cameron took over in the mid 00s,no one. that is why Ukip rose in the early/mid 2010s because Cameron was not a Conservative and Osborne was anti-conservative, Boris gave us some glimpses of hope early in his term, but he turned out to be an economically centrist version of David Cameron. I think you are confusing Conservatism and trying to turn back the clock into the past. I’m not a reactionary person on most social issues (supported Same Sex marriage before Cameron proposed it), I do however believe that a Conservative would try to conserve things, and the only thing the Tory party is trying to conserve in the last decade is the environment (which is not a bad thing), they don’t care about traditional values, they embrace almost every trendy liberal cultural thing a year or 2 after Labour. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 23, 2022 15:30:31 GMT
I think you are confusing Conservatism and trying to turn back the clock into the past. I’m not a reactionary person on most social issues (supported Same Sex marriage before Cameron proposed it), I do however believe that a Conservative would try to conserve things, and the only thing the Tory party is trying to conserve in the last decade is the environment (which is not a bad thing), they don’t care about traditional values, they embrace almost every trendy liberal cultural thing a year or 2 after Labour. BTW, to be crystal clear. there was a reason David Cameron moved the party to the left on social issues and I totally understand him, but we don’t hold places like Battersea anymore, we are not competitive in Hampstead anymore and I would have expected us to shift back to the right on social issues as we moved to the center on economic issues. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 23, 2022 15:54:09 GMT
I’m not a reactionary person on most social issues (supported Same Sex marriage before Cameron proposed it), I do however believe that a Conservative would try to conserve things, and the only thing the Tory party is trying to conserve in the last decade is the environment (which is not a bad thing), they don’t care about traditional values, they embrace almost every trendy liberal cultural thing a year or 2 after Labour. BTW, to be crystal clear. there was a reason David Cameron moved the party to the left on social issues and I totally understand him, but we don’t hold places like Battersea anymore, we are not competitive in Hampstead anymore and I would have expected us to shift back to the right on social issues as we moved to the center on economic issues. Which you have done on race-related matters, but there are fewer votes to be gained on other issues. |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 23, 2022 17:00:15 GMT
One thing that does occur to me is that in the old British Liberal party, the activists were generally more left wing than their voters. Is there a similar disconnect in any of the Swiss parties?
There exist not many studies on this (as far as i know), but i had saved these tries:   |
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Mar 23, 2022 17:29:12 GMT
Seems to mostly be a case of the elite being more ideologically consistent/extreme than their voters, particularly on economics.
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Mar 23, 2022 19:28:11 GMT
I am a bit out of touch nowadays; but from what I can gather the closest party in Switzerland to our old Liberal party are the Green Liberals. The GreenLiberals do not really differ from Red&Green concerning environment/climate/traffic, so very much on strongStateRegulation (just more via parrotting the economy) and are as a consequence less leftliberal than the "LandesRing der Unabhängigen/LdU" was once. But in finance&economy they are quite pro-capitalistic (especially during the era of PartyFounder Bäumle, recently they have been trending to the left due to polarisation). Of all present-day CH-parties they certainly fit best to the LibDems. Yet, i am no inSider like aargauer. Agreed. The Green liberals are pretty close to the Lib Dems in general (obviously with a green slant). Generally centre to centre left. What's left of the orange bookers could sit at the left half of the FDP (who are economically to the right of the uk Conservative party and on many issues, particularly in terms of protectionism and agriculture the Swiss SVP). The FDP are an avowedly free market party. That's about all they agree on. They have been quite divided on social / culture divide issues (including for example covid certificates). |
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Khunanup
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Post by Khunanup on Mar 23, 2022 22:56:02 GMT
To bring it right back around (and because I kicked this all off, thanks to all who demonstrated their dynamic understanding of Liberalism btw), the lack of understanding of British Liberals as having free trade as a core of their being is a noticeable omission. And it's not an economic doctrine either, which is a difficult concept for economically based ideologies.
Compared to the ingrained protectionist impulses of the Tories & Labour, for whom free trade is entirely transactional and subject to change
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Mar 24, 2022 1:49:19 GMT
I think you are confusing Conservatism and trying to turn back the clock into the past. I’m not a reactionary person on most social issues (supported Same Sex marriage before Cameron proposed it), I do however believe that a Conservative would try to conserve things, and the only thing the Tory party is trying to conserve in the last decade is the environment (which is not a bad thing), they don’t care about traditional values, they embrace almost every trendy liberal cultural thing a year or 2 after Labour. Don't forget the gerontocracy. They've gotten very good at conserving that. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 24, 2022 9:33:48 GMT
To bring it right back around (and because I kicked this all off, thanks to all who demonstrated their dynamic understanding of Liberalism btw), the lack of understanding of British Liberals as having free trade as a core of their being is a noticeable omission. And it's not an economic doctrine either, which is a difficult concept for economically based ideologies. Compared to the ingrained protectionist impulses of the Tories & Labour, for whom free trade is entirely transactional and subject to change Not every supporter of Free trade is a Liberal, but every (real) Liberal supports free trade. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 24, 2022 9:41:19 GMT
I’m not a reactionary person on most social issues (supported Same Sex marriage before Cameron proposed it), I do however believe that a Conservative would try to conserve things, and the only thing the Tory party is trying to conserve in the last decade is the environment (which is not a bad thing), they don’t care about traditional values, they embrace almost every trendy liberal cultural thing a year or 2 after Labour. Don't forget the gerontocracy. They've gotten very good at conserving that. excluding Japan, US Dems must be the most Conservative party in the world. |
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Post by matureleft on Mar 24, 2022 10:00:42 GMT
To bring it right back around (and because I kicked this all off, thanks to all who demonstrated their dynamic understanding of Liberalism btw), the lack of understanding of British Liberals as having free trade as a core of their being is a noticeable omission. And it's not an economic doctrine either, which is a difficult concept for economically based ideologies. Compared to the ingrained protectionist impulses of the Tories & Labour, for whom free trade is entirely transactional and subject to change Right... Could you explain how having "free trade as a core of their being" is compatible with enthusiasm for the EU? While the EU has gradually (but far from completely) embraced free trade within its borders it remains deeply protectionist toward other states. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Mar 24, 2022 11:31:15 GMT
So if you are liberal,why join a Conservative party unless you conclude it, too, is liberal? The problem is that the definition of liberal is just so broad and people with very different views may class themselves as liberal. Because Croydon is stuck in a 1950s-style time-warp in which there are only 2 main parties. When I joined the Conservative Party in 2013, it did occur to me that if I had been living in Sutton (for example) I might have joined the Lib Dems. Thank goodness I don’t live in Sutton. Why only join a big party in an area? Is your main belief a chance of winning is most important? Do you have any other beliefs or are they disposable for the potential win? Are you the prime minister? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 24, 2022 23:29:45 GMT
Don't forget the gerontocracy. They've gotten very good at conserving that. excluding Japan, US Dems must be the most Conservative party in the world. The CSU want a word. They've no time for these namby-pamby Japanese liberal types. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 0:12:58 GMT
Because Croydon is stuck in a 1950s-style time-warp in which there are only 2 main parties. When I joined the Conservative Party in 2013, it did occur to me that if I had been living in Sutton (for example) I might have joined the Lib Dems. Thank goodness I don’t live in Sutton. Why only join a big party in an area? Is your main belief a chance of winning is most important? Do you have any other beliefs or are they disposable for the potential win? Are you the prime minister? If you don't have a chance of winning your ability to influence anything is very limited. Winning shouldn't be the be all and end all but its perfectly reasonable to consider whether or not one party or the other is likely to win and therefore put some of your beliefs into practice |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Mar 27, 2022 12:17:23 GMT
To bring it right back around (and because I kicked this all off, thanks to all who demonstrated their dynamic understanding of Liberalism btw), the lack of understanding of British Liberals as having free trade as a core of their being is a noticeable omission. And it's not an economic doctrine either, which is a difficult concept for economically based ideologies. Compared to the ingrained protectionist impulses of the Tories & Labour, for whom free trade is entirely transactional and subject to change Right... Could you explain how having "free trade as a core of their being" is compatible with enthusiasm for the EU? While the EU has gradually (but far from completely) embraced free trade within its borders it remains deeply protectionist toward other states. There are two answer to this The first is that since our biggest trading partner is Europe, if you have to choose (a) free trade across Europe but barriers beyond or (b) no trade barriers beyond Europe but much bigger barriers to trade with Europe then the net free-trade option is the EU. The biggest free trade area in the world is the biggest free trade area is the biggest free trade area. The second answer is that only the second part of option (b) exists, since the rest of the big world economies (especially China but also the USA) are also protectionist, and trying to negotiate out of that is hard due to the power imbalance between e.g. UK and US whereas being in the EU at least opens up the prospect of some trade-offs of mutual protections via EU trade deals. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Mar 27, 2022 12:31:17 GMT
Anyway, what I came here for, was: anyone got any news on your actual Hungarian GE? Feels like it might be the most interesting one for some time.
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DrW
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Post by DrW on Mar 27, 2022 13:45:08 GMT
Anyway, what I came here for, was: anyone got any news on your actual Hungarian GE? Feels like it might be the most interesting one for some time. Today’s Sunday Times is reporting an opinion poll that has Fidesz ahead 41/39, and appears to ascribe that to Orban’s refusal to cut off Russian oil and gas supplies. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 29, 2022 12:29:30 GMT
Anyway, what I came here for, was: anyone got any news on your actual Hungarian GE? Feels like it might be the most interesting one for some time. Every opinion poll conducted in the month of March has Orban leading by more then 3%, so he is probably the favourite. |
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