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Post by rcronald on Mar 22, 2022 17:27:47 GMT
If a party is not really economically Liberal but is socially liberal then I don’t think that they should be labeled as “Liberals”. David is for example is a real Liberal, socially and economically. I think of myself as both a liberal and a democrat, but I am certainly not a Liberal Democrat! The only time the LDs were actually a Liberal party was when Clegg was in charge and even then radical centrist may be a better label. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2022 17:30:37 GMT
It depends on how 'liberal' is defined. If you mean economic liberalism then some conservative parties have adopted that brand of liberalism. Social liberalism does not necessarily link directly to economic liberalism. It's a catch all ideology and has many distinctly different elements I think that a party is “Liberal” if it is Liberal both on our society and our economy. If a party is not really economically Liberal but is socially liberal then I don’t think that they should be labeled as “Liberals”, but rather as progressive or Social Democrats. David is for example is a real Liberal, socially and economically. I see Forfarshire Conservative as a real albeit socially moderate Conservative. If that is your definition of Liberal, do you view Conservatives as the traditional pragmatic 'Tory' - socially conservative but economically more pragmatic and interventionist? Interesting that Fidesz began as a Liberal party and are now proud to define themselves as "illiberal" |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 22, 2022 17:32:26 GMT
I think that a party is “Liberal” if it is Liberal both on our society and our economy. If a party is not really economically Liberal but is socially liberal then I don’t think that they should be labeled as “Liberals”, but rather as progressive or Social Democrats. David is for example is a real Liberal, socially and economically. I see Forfarshire Conservative as a real albeit socially moderate Conservative. If that is your definition of Liberal, do you view Conservatives as the traditional pragmatic 'Tory' - socially conservative but economically more pragmatic and interventionist? Yes, this is how I view the label Conservative. We were the party of Tariff reform for a reason. |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Mar 22, 2022 17:48:12 GMT
Received another thinly disguised Fidesz campaign email from the official Government portal. Translated (Google) below. No overt mention of the opposition this time, although no prizes for guessing who those "actors in Hungarian life" might be. There's also a renewed shift towards attacking Brussels. A reminder that I only get these emails because I had to register with the government system in order to get my covid vaccines.
Dear Sir / Madam!
The Russo-Ukrainian war has serious economic consequences throughout Europe. In this situation, we only support economic sanctions against Russia that do not cause unbearable economic damage to Hungary.
Some leaders in Brussels want to punish Russia at all costs, and they also want punitive measures that would place an additional unpaid burden on European, including Hungarian, citizens. The Vice-President of the European Commission has argued for reducing gas supplies from Russia and for people to turn down the heating in their homes. According to the Brussels Energy Commissioner, people and businesses in every Member State are prepared to bear the burden of higher energy prices in person.
There are also actors in Hungarian public life who support these ideas and would even shut off the gas taps. This is a serious irresponsibility, as 85% of Hungarian households are heated with gas. And 64 percent of Hungarian crude oil imports come from Russia. Suspending energy imports from Russia would seriously jeopardize the security of oil and gas supplies and even double or triple the burden on Hungarian families.
We must also act responsibly in European forums in order to preserve the peace and financial security of Hungarian families. The Hungarian government continues to oppose the extension of sanctions to the energy sector. The Prime Minister successfully represented Hungarian interests at both the Paris and Brussels summits. He made it clear that this step would place a disproportionate burden on Hungary.
We continue to condemn Russian military aggression and stand up for the territorial integrity of Ukraine. However, we insist that the costs of the war should not be paid for by Hungarian families.
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polupolu
Lib Dem
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Post by polupolu on Mar 22, 2022 18:39:01 GMT
I see Forfarshire Conservative as a real albeit socially moderate Conservative. If that is your definition of Liberal, do you view Conservatives as the traditional pragmatic 'Tory' - socially conservative but economically more pragmatic and interventionist? Yes, this is how I view the label Conservative. We were the party of Tariff reform for a reason. At different times, the Conservatives have been both pro-Tariff and pro-Free Trade. Which is the pragmatic option in your opinion, since they are mutually exclusive?
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 22, 2022 18:42:40 GMT
Yes, this is how I view the label Conservative. We were the party of Tariff reform for a reason. At different times, the Conservatives have been both pro-Tariff and pro-Free Trade. Which is the pragmatic option in your opinion, since they are mutually exclusive?
Surely the pragmatic option is to go with whichever balance of pro-Tariff and pro-Free Trade policies are the best in the current circumstances, rather than believing that one of those two options is always better than the other. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 22, 2022 19:26:25 GMT
Yes, this is how I view the label Conservative. We were the party of Tariff reform for a reason. At different times, the Conservatives have been both pro-Tariff and pro-Free Trade. Which is the pragmatic option in your opinion, since they are mutually exclusive?
didn’t say that Tariff reform is the pragmatic option (I’m balanced with a tilt toward tariff reform), was just pointing out that we weren’t always a pro-free trade economically Liberal party like we are today. |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 22, 2022 22:12:38 GMT
I think of myself as both a liberal and a democrat, but I am certainly not a Liberal Democrat! The only time the LDs were actually a Liberal party was when Clegg was in charge and even then radical centrist may be a better label. As a liberal I object to that assertion! |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 22, 2022 23:21:19 GMT
The UK (along with the US) has a very deformed view of what Liberalism actually is, British and American “Liberal” parties are Social-democratic in nature and many “Conservatives” are actually Liberals. Exactly, at least in the USA "Liberals" = progressives = soft left. Per definitionen liberalism puts liberty absolute, in all areas, thus also in economy. As soon as the static feudalistic&patrician tiers&privilegues were removed by the merger of liberalism&democracy (=liberty&equality) "Manchester" arose. (AntiDemocratic Liberals like deTOQUEVILLE or CONSTANTdeR. were often not excited by the homines novi of capitalism, but a consequent democratic Liberal can critizise capitalism only for reducing the liberty of weaker wills.) Conservativism = conserving the status quo, what has meant since socialism-surge in the late XIXth defending capitalism; but before that the landed interEsts of aristoCrats&peasants against the capitalism of the urban bourgeoisie. |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 22, 2022 23:39:16 GMT
I am a bit out of touch nowadays; but from what I can gather the closest party in Switzerland to our old Liberal party are the Green Liberals. [/div] The GreenLiberals do not really differ from Red&Green concerning environment/climate/traffic, so very much on strongStateRegulation (just more via parrotting the economy) and are as a consequence less leftliberal than the "LandesRing der Unabhängigen/LdU" was once. But in finance&economy they are quite pro-capitalistic (especially during the era of PartyFounder Bäumle, recently they have been trending to the left due to polarisation). Of all present-day CH-parties they certainly fit best to the LibDems. Yet, i am no inSider like aargauer. |
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johnloony
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Post by johnloony on Mar 23, 2022 1:58:42 GMT
I think that a party is “Liberal” if it is Liberal both on our society and our economy. If a party is not really economically Liberal but is socially liberal then I don’t think that they should be labeled as “Liberals”, but rather as progressive or Social Democrats. David is for example is a real Liberal, socially and economically. I see Forfarshire Conservative as a real albeit socially moderate Conservative. If that is your definition of Liberal, do you view Conservatives as the traditional pragmatic 'Tory' - socially conservative but economically more pragmatic and interventionist? Interesting that Fidesz began as a Liberal party and are now proud to define themselves as "illiberal" I am liberal. I joined the Conservative Party because I’m liberal. I resigned from the Liberal Party because it was not liberal, and its then leadership was illiberal. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 23, 2022 8:16:55 GMT
I see Forfarshire Conservative as a real albeit socially moderate Conservative. If that is your definition of Liberal, do you view Conservatives as the traditional pragmatic 'Tory' - socially conservative but economically more pragmatic and interventionist? Interesting that Fidesz began as a Liberal party and are now proud to define themselves as "illiberal" I am liberal. I joined the Conservative Party because I’m liberal. I resigned from the Liberal Party because it was not liberal, and its then leadership was illiberal. So if the Conservative party is liberal, who represents the views of Conservatives? |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 23, 2022 9:56:08 GMT
Then they aren't Liberals any more are they Georg? They are Conservatives. (One type of) .  I am a bit out of touch nowadays; but from what I can gather the closest party in Switzerland to our old Liberal party are the Green Liberals. Here is a try to press their MPs into a LeftRight-axis:  While the left-protestantic EVP (lightorange) would be an optimal fit for Farron, the bulk of LibDems would go to the GreenLiberals (lightgreen). Already BDP (yellow) or the exCath.Cons. of CVP (darkorange) would be too bourgeois for the LibDems. (Although economically they were once put by experts for comparative politoLogy to the left [!] of New Labour... [though probably underestimating, that Blair&Brown changed the Thatcher-system below surFace]) |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Mar 23, 2022 10:12:03 GMT
I am liberal. I joined the Conservative Party because I’m liberal. I resigned from the Liberal Party because it was not liberal, and its then leadership was illiberal. So if the Conservative party is liberal, who represents the views of Conservatives? "Wet" Tories, who are usually "oscillating" i.e. hiding their unsaleable genuine conservatism (in the US-politSlang: "soc. cons.") behind an economical centrism (and as a conSequence appearing less "extreme" than Reagan&Thatcher). |
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johnloony
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Post by johnloony on Mar 23, 2022 10:26:47 GMT
I am liberal. I joined the Conservative Party because I’m liberal. I resigned from the Liberal Party because it was not liberal, and its then leadership was illiberal. So if the Conservative party is liberal, who represents the views of Conservatives? The Conservative Party. But your question is a non-sequitur, because I didn’t write that the Conservative Party is liberal. I wrote that I am liberal. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 23, 2022 10:31:24 GMT
So if the Conservative party is liberal, who represents the views of Conservatives? The Conservative Party. But your question is a non-sequitur, because I didn’t write that the Conservative Party is liberal. I wrote that I am liberal. So if you are liberal,why join a Conservative party unless you conclude it, too, is liberal? The problem is that the definition of liberal is just so broad and people with very different views may class themselves as liberal. |
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polupolu
Lib Dem
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Post by polupolu on Mar 23, 2022 10:41:31 GMT
I am a bit out of touch nowadays; but from what I can gather the closest party in Switzerland to our old Liberal party are the Green Liberals. Here is a try to press their MPs into a LeftRight-axis: While the left-protestantic EVP (lightorange) would be an optimal fit for Farron, the bulk of LibDems would go to the GreenLiberals (lightgreen). Already BDP (yellow) or the exCath.Cons. of CVP (darkorange) would be too bourgeois for the LibDems. (Although economically they were once put by experts for comparative politoLogy to the left [!] of New Labour... [though probably underestimating, that Blair&Brown changed the Thatcher-system below surFace]) Thanks Georg Ebner - very interesting analysis. Looks like there is a small drift leftwards overall over time (apart from the SVP) I can see why you would put Farron in the EVP  . The EVP are a good example of why Christian Parties are not necessarily aligned with English-speaking Conservative parties.
One thing that does occur to me is that in the old British Liberal party, the activists were generally more left wing than their voters. Is there a similar disconnect in any of the Swiss parties?
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johnloony
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Post by johnloony on Mar 23, 2022 11:32:13 GMT
The Conservative Party. But your question is a non-sequitur, because I didn’t write that the Conservative Party is liberal. I wrote that I am liberal. So if you are liberal,why join a Conservative party unless you conclude it, too, is liberal? The problem is that the definition of liberal is just so broad and people with very different views may class themselves as liberal. Because Croydon is stuck in a 1950s-style time-warp in which there are only 2 main parties. When I joined the Conservative Party in 2013, it did occur to me that if I had been living in Sutton (for example) I might have joined the Lib Dems. Thank goodness I don’t live in Sutton. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Mar 23, 2022 12:43:20 GMT
So if you are liberal,why join a Conservative party unless you conclude it, too, is liberal? The problem is that the definition of liberal is just so broad and people with very different views may class themselves as liberal. Because Croydon is stuck in a 1950s-style time-warp in which there are only 2 main parties. When I joined the Conservative Party in 2013, it did occur to me that if I had been living in Sutton (for example) I might have joined the Lib Dems. Thank goodness I don’t live in Sutton.I think the Lib Dems on here will agree.  |
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The Bishop
Labour
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Post by The Bishop on Mar 23, 2022 13:53:01 GMT
The Conservative Party. But your question is a non-sequitur, because I didn’t write that the Conservative Party is liberal. I wrote that I am liberal. So if you are liberal,why join a Conservative party unless you conclude it, too, is liberal? The problem is that the definition of liberal is just so broad and people with very different views may class themselves as liberal. This is true isn't it, people on everything from the hard right to hard left - and all points in between - self-describe as "liberal". |
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. The EVP are a good example of why Christian Parties are not necessarily aligned with English-speaking Conservative parties.
