What would you do if you became Tory leader in 1997?

[Deleted]

Or if you were inserted into the body of William Hague after he won.



our goal is to make sure that Labour gets a minority or a small majority in the 2001 general election or if the Tories manage to get a minority/majority and if Labour does well, you have to relive everything all over again until you achieve your "goal". What would you do?

[carlton43]

Concern myself with the structural problems of the party organization by :-

Choosing a small new Inner Circle of Advisers
Re-structure and re-staff a smaller Downing Street Office
Consolidate and reduce the number of Ministries and of Ministers
Simplify the Names of Ministries and reduce the alt.woke cant about race, gender, equality, environment and green issues.
Overhaul the Party HO structure and staffing very radically
Arrange for the Party Chairman to be an Elected Office by membership of the party and under their control
Arrange far deeper profiling and checking on all party candidates for any office before the grant of approval to candidature.
Improve the quality, depth and cover of Constituency and Regional Agents so that we have more in place all the time
Encourage Constituency Party expansion and growth of membership placing sole control of candidate selection with them but only of fully vetted persons
Hold Courses for Candidates and MPs to stress what is and is not permissible as to ethics, morals, 'outside' activities and work, and general conduct
Review and codify the role, duties and boundaries for the Whips Office

Review all current policy positions and make changes towards :-

Far smaller Green/Global Warming content or emphasis
Get a new Border Force set up with wide powers and duties to protect coasts, ports and to police shipping, rail and air against illegal entry of goods and persons
Introduce wide embracing ID Card system
Reconfigure the entire Electoral Registration System to clean out non-British, Illegals, Dual registration and error
Alter Election Ballots to have full 'real' name and actual area of normal permanent residence and nothing else at all
Instruct Minister of Power to ensure we become as near to self sufficient for fuel and power as soon as possible with no foreign control of any form in sector
Get a firm control on National Debt and start programme of reduction
Stop whole concept of QE and increase Interest Rates gradually to 3-4% level
Try to reduce volume of personal debt by campaign and policies
Get a firm control of the Gambling Industry with very tight regulation and very high taxes and fees. Try to reduce it as with Smoking
Make land much cheaper by buying in centrally by compulsory purchase then granting planning consent and making it available for development without much uplift in price with controls on builder profits
Make all able bodied people drawing benefits work in the community for those benefits or lose them
Introduce National Service for all who do not join the military, medical profession, teaching, police or take an approved apprenticeship :-
in military
or forestry
or police
or social services
or refuse street cleaning
or allied public services
Reorganize funding of universities and students to give priority to national shortages and requirements and to recognize quality of entry qualifications :-
triple A Grades free
medical, teaching, military, science, IT, languages and others free or much reduced
poor grades at entry for such as geography, history, cultural studies, PPE and such like fully charged out on loans with repayment starting as soon as course ends and proportionate to income.

[J.G.Harston]

Feb 4, 2022 16:35:14 GMT carlton43 said:

Reorganize funding of universities and students to give priority to national shortages and requirements and to recognize quality of entry qualifications:
triple A Grades free
medical, teaching, military, science, IT, languages and others free or much reduced
poor grades at entry for such as geography, history, cultural studies, PPE and such like fully charged out on loans with repayment starting as soon as course ends and proportionate to income.

What about engineering?

[Wisconsin]

Resign and let Ken Clarke take over.

[tonyhill]

A lot of what carlton43 is suggesting is more applicable to today than to 1997, but full marks to him for having thought about the structural and policy problems of the Conservative Party so comprehensively. One of the major faults with all the political parties in recent decades is that they have not used the opportunities presented by opposition to think deeply about their function, organisation and policies (the last time was, I think, the emergence of New Labour, very carefully planned and strategised). If Labour had done that in 2010, and come up with credible reasons for their existence instead of bleating on for five years about how the Coalition was the most right wing government in British history (which was bollocks) then they would probably not have ended up with Corbyn as leader. The only things I recall about Hague as post-1997 leader was how wooden he seemed in comparison to Blair at the height of his powers, and the so many "...days to save the Pound' campaign in 2001 when everyone knew that Gordon Brown had no intention of allowing Blair to ditch it anyway.

[slon]

The problem to be faced was mismanagement of the economy in the previous 5 or six years. A boom based on consumer spending and property prices followed by a bust when reality kicked in.
It left a particularly important group very angry ... and this group were the aspirational working class who saw their net value fall as property prices dropped.

The academic conservative values stuff and party organisations would have been irrelevant, what was needed to win or even recover significantly in time for the next election was an enemy which only the Tories would be prepared to fight.

Bring back Enoch and his disciples, blame the problems on immigrants, paint labour as the party of immigration.

[nodealbrexiteer]

Feb 4, 2022 16:35:14 GMT carlton43 said:

Concern myself with the structural problems of the party organization by :-

Choosing a small new Inner Circle of Advisers
Re-structure and re-staff a smaller Downing Street Office
Consolidate and reduce the number of Ministries and of Ministers
Simplify the Names of Ministries and reduce the alt.woke cant about race, gender, equality, environment and green issues.
Overhaul the Party HO structure and staffing very radically
Arrange for the Party Chairman to be an Elected Office by membership of the party and under their control
Arrange far deeper profiling and checking on all party candidates for any office before the grant of approval to candidature.
Improve the quality, depth and cover of Constituency and Regional Agents so that we have more in place all the time
Encourage Constituency Party expansion and growth of membership placing sole control of candidate selection with them but only of fully vetted persons
Hold Courses for Candidates and MPs to stress what is and is not permissible as to ethics, morals, 'outside' activities and work, and general conduct
Review and codify the role, duties and boundaries for the Whips Office

Review all current policy positions and make changes towards :-

Far smaller Green/Global Warming content or emphasis
Get a new Border Force set up with wide powers and duties to protect coasts, ports and to police shipping, rail and air against illegal entry of goods and persons
Introduce wide embracing ID Card system
Reconfigure the entire Electoral Registration System to clean out non-British, Illegals, Dual registration and error
Alter Election Ballots to have full 'real' name and actual area of normal permanent residence and nothing else at all
Instruct Minister of Power to ensure we become as near to self sufficient for fuel and power as soon as possible with no foreign control of any form in sector
Get a firm control on National Debt and start programme of reduction
Stop whole concept of QE and increase Interest Rates gradually to 3-4% level
Try to reduce volume of personal debt by campaign and policies
Get a firm control of the Gambling Industry with very tight regulation and very high taxes and fees. Try to reduce it as with Smoking
Make land much cheaper by buying in centrally by compulsory purchase then granting planning consent and making it available for development without much uplift in price with controls on builder profits
Make all able bodied people drawing benefits work in the community for those benefits or lose them
Introduce National Service for all who do not join the military, medical profession, teaching, police or take an approved apprenticeship :-
in military
or forestry
or police
or social services
or refuse street cleaning
or allied public services
Reorganize funding of universities and students to give priority to national shortages and requirements and to recognize quality of entry qualifications :-
triple A Grades free
medical, teaching, military, science, IT, languages and others free or much reduced
poor grades at entry for such as geography, history, cultural studies, PPE and such like fully charged out on loans with repayment starting as soon as course ends and proportionate to income.

liked in part for the bolded bit-as a debt adviser situations with personal debt often shock

[jakegb]

Very difficult one...

Policy wise, Labour were in their honeymoon period - and so the Tories had little manoeuvring in this crucial area. 
And unfortunately there were few serious policy mistakes until 2003 (Iraq War), so Hague was always on the back foot here (and privately he/his top team knew it).

I'm not sure any other Tory politician of the time would have done any better; indeed, if you had swapped Hague and Howard around (in terms of elections fought), I think there would still be remarkably similar results. 

[Harry Hayfield]

Feb 4, 2022 15:42:29 GMT @liberalpa said:

Or if you were inserted into the body of William Hague after he won.



our goal is to make sure that Labour gets a minority or a small majority in the 2001 general election or if the Tories manage to get a minority/majority and if Labour does well, you have to relive everything all over again until you achieve your "goal". What would you do?

Follow the Lib Dem stragety of "constructive opposition" from day one, so that the "nasty party" taint vanishes by the next election. In the 1999 European Elections, campaign for reform of the European Union by "constructive dialogue with our European partners" and urge Mr. Blair to create a cross party European Currency group to publish a report into the pros and cons of the Euro for publication by 2004.

[Richard Cromwell]

Propose switching the party platform to Single Tax geolibertarianism and get sacked.

[dundas]

Gone further in the denunciations of Labour as Liberal Elites, and given a voice to the disaffected such as Country side Alliance and Fathers 4 Justice by giving them prominent positions at the Party Conference (underneath the rhetoric, they'd have been minimal change to party policy).

Hired Martin Bell to investigate Party sleaze and have a zero tolerance policy on front bench to any and all sexual licentiousness'.

Denounced Shaun Woodward as a crypto-fascist.

Wore a Michael Fabricant wig as I believe the candidate with most hair tends to win.

Become the anti-Blair; be grumpy and unpolished where he is a smiling spinner.

Doubled down on the 14 pints a day assertion by being seen drinking beer from a can whenever I entered the Houses of Parliament.

Make Margaret Thatcher Party Chairman for life.

[Forfarshire Conservative]

Feb 4, 2022 16:35:14 GMT carlton43 said:

Concern myself with the structural problems of the party organization by :-

Choosing a small new Inner Circle of Advisers
Re-structure and re-staff a smaller Downing Street Office
Consolidate and reduce the number of Ministries and of Ministers
Simplify the Names of Ministries and reduce the alt.woke cant about race, gender, equality, environment and green issues.
Overhaul the Party HO structure and staffing very radically
Arrange for the Party Chairman to be an Elected Office by membership of the party and under their control
Arrange far deeper profiling and checking on all party candidates for any office before the grant of approval to candidature.
Improve the quality, depth and cover of Constituency and Regional Agents so that we have more in place all the time
Encourage Constituency Party expansion and growth of membership placing sole control of candidate selection with them but only of fully vetted persons
Hold Courses for Candidates and MPs to stress what is and is not permissible as to ethics, morals, 'outside' activities and work, and general conduct
Review and codify the role, duties and boundaries for the Whips Office

Review all current policy positions and make changes towards :-

Far smaller Green/Global Warming content or emphasis
Get a new Border Force set up with wide powers and duties to protect coasts, ports and to police shipping, rail and air against illegal entry of goods and persons
Introduce wide embracing ID Card system
Reconfigure the entire Electoral Registration System to clean out non-British, Illegals, Dual registration and error
Alter Election Ballots to have full 'real' name and actual area of normal permanent residence and nothing else at all
Instruct Minister of Power to ensure we become as near to self sufficient for fuel and power as soon as possible with no foreign control of any form in sector
Get a firm control on National Debt and start programme of reduction
Stop whole concept of QE and increase Interest Rates gradually to 3-4% level
Try to reduce volume of personal debt by campaign and policies
Get a firm control of the Gambling Industry with very tight regulation and very high taxes and fees. Try to reduce it as with Smoking
Make land much cheaper by buying in centrally by compulsory purchase then granting planning consent and making it available for development without much uplift in price with controls on builder profits
Make all able bodied people drawing benefits work in the community for those benefits or lose them
Introduce National Service for all who do not join the military, medical profession, teaching, police or take an approved apprenticeship :-
in military
or forestry
or police
or social services
or refuse street cleaning
or allied public services
Reorganize funding of universities and students to give priority to national shortages and requirements and to recognize quality of entry qualifications :-
triple A Grades free
medical, teaching, military, science, IT, languages and others free or much reduced
poor grades at entry for such as geography, history, cultural studies, PPE and such like fully charged out on loans with repayment starting as soon as course ends and proportionate to income.

I agree with most of that. Though, I don't agree with ID cards.

[nodealbrexiteer]

Feb 6, 2022 20:58:13 GMT Harry Hayfield said:

Feb 4, 2022 15:42:29 GMT @liberalpa said:

Or if you were inserted into the body of William Hague after he won.



our goal is to make sure that Labour gets a minority or a small majority in the 2001 general election or if the Tories manage to get a minority/majority and if Labour does well, you have to relive everything all over again until you achieve your "goal". What would you do?

Follow the Lib Dem stragety of "constructive opposition" from day one, so that the "nasty party" taint vanishes by the next election. In the 1999 European Elections, campaign for reform of the European Union by "constructive dialogue with our European partners" and urge Mr. Blair to create a cross party European Currency group to publish a report into the pros and cons of the Euro for publication by 2004.

This might have been seen as wishy washy by the membership

[matureleft]

The party faced a choice after 1997, and I recall setting it out in 1997 in a local radio discussion with a well-known Tory. Either it needed to define itself as a mainstream European centre-right party or it had to set out its stall as essentially an English nationalist party. The difficulty of the former was that Blair had driven his tanks all over that lawn and then proceeded to park them on most of the attractive policy areas. There wasn't much space to set up even a small tent. And Blair was a supreme strategist, constantly looking to reduce the centrist space that any Tory party could occupy. With hindsight the only unpredictable element in this was how supportive the Labour party was of this occupancy, and for how long.

So the other direction, which was where most Tory members (but not the guy I was talking with) wanted to be, was more rational. The problem was that much of that agenda was unappealing at that point - witness how well New Labour was doing in 1997 and 2001 in future hard-core Brexit territory. Banging on about Europe was boring and mildly nutty. And the Tories also had to win a "right to be heard". People just weren't listening to them. The mess of the Major government and the "nasty party" label saw to that.

But the "nasty" label was misunderstood. People didn't want a kind and cuddly Tory party - had Thatcher's governments ever been so? Enough people didn't mind both quite "nasty" policies and often rather unpleasant and alien people delivering them. What they disliked was incompetence, incoherence, blatant personal hypocrisy and purposelessness.

Hague tried the "core vote" plan and probably sticking to that would have been best (he changed tack and, of course, wasn't a true believer anyway) even though it might have meant a worse thumping in 2001 (probably inevitable whatever the Tory approach). But determined repetition of nativist and early culture war stuff, and anti-EU messages backed up or even led by a friendly media gradually bore fruit, particularly once migration gave them something concrete for people to stick those thoughts on.

So a sharper and brighter IDS was probably the best option in 1997 but of course the shell-shocked parliamentary party wasn't in that place and anyway, whoever would that be?

[sirbenjamin]

Very obviously we should've gone down the 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' route. In fact we should've been doing this from about 1995 onwards.

New Labour was about spin, narrative and strawmen. The 'othering' of the Tories, despite the fact that politically it was always going to be far closer to the outgoing Conservative administration than any Labour government in history.

Things were presented as 'radical' 'alternatives' when they were largely a continuation of business as usual. And this bullshit needed cutting through.

So, we should've been praising the Labour party for not doing anything to disrupting the healthy economy they inherited from the Conservatives; Congratulating them on ditching all the old left-wing policies in favour of those which were far closer to ours. Commending them for continuing our work. And so on.

This would likely have really pissed off the far left and Labour traditionalists, and hopefully have shaken at least some of the electorate out of the walking lobotomy of conformity and got them questioning the actual political positions of the parties, rather than simply 'NooLab good; Tory baaaaad' which seemed to be the extent of many peoples thinking for many years.

[slon]

Feb 10, 2022 12:18:42 GMT sirbenjamin said:

Very obviously we should've gone down the 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' route. In fact we should've been doing this from about 1995 onwards.

New Labour was about spin, narrative and strawmen. The 'othering' of the Tories, despite the fact that politically it was always going to be far closer to the outgoing Conservative administration than any Labour government in history.

Things were presented as 'radical' 'alternatives' when they were largely a continuation of business as usual. And this bullshit needed cutting through.

So, we should've been praising the Labour party for not doing anything to disrupting the healthy economy they inherited from the Conservatives; Congratulating them on ditching all the old left-wing policies in favour of those which were far closer to ours. Commending them for continuing our work. And so on.

This would likely have really pissed off the far left and Labour traditionalists, and hopefully have shaken at least some of the electorate out of the walking lobotomy of conformity and got them questioning the actual political positions of the parties, rather than simply 'NooLab good; Tory baaaaad' which seemed to be the extent of many peoples thinking for many years.

Problem with that was the conservative record in office from 92 to 97 .... they demonstrated economic incompetence.

Labour up that point had been quite sound and made all the right noises about prudence and the end of boom&bust

Added to this the Tory party itself was coming apart over EU membership. 
The Tory leader in 97 had to provide new ideas and a new direction the party would follow 

[John Chanin]

The only thing the Conservative Party could do in 1997 was to focus on rebuilding morale and unity, and this is what Hague did. He concluded that the Conservatives had to reunite around a nationalist position and accept that the christian democrats were gone for good. A pitch needed to be made to business as well to keep those better off who didn’t share the nationalist perspective from deserting. This was less successful, as many such people with a historic and well justified suspicion of the Labour Party did indeed desert in 2001. But the civil war in the Conservative party had ended.

There was no scope in 1997 for the sort of populist opening to the working class - that only became practical in the last decade, and has given the Conservatives considerable problems which are starting to play out.

My view is that Hague did a good job in the circumstances. He should not have resigned after the 2001 defeat, and would have provided a much better challenge to Labour in the aftermath of the Iraq war, and with the inevitable disillusion with the government, than Duncan-Smith or Howard. Labour didn’t poll well in 2005 and the results flattered them. A Hague-led party could have given Labour a real run for their money.

[sirbenjamin]

Feb 11, 2022 17:19:16 GMT slon said:

Feb 10, 2022 12:18:42 GMT sirbenjamin said:

Very obviously we should've gone down the 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' route. In fact we should've been doing this from about 1995 onwards.

New Labour was about spin, narrative and strawmen. The 'othering' of the Tories, despite the fact that politically it was always going to be far closer to the outgoing Conservative administration than any Labour government in history.

Things were presented as 'radical' 'alternatives' when they were largely a continuation of business as usual. And this bullshit needed cutting through.

So, we should've been praising the Labour party for not doing anything to disrupting the healthy economy they inherited from the Conservatives; Congratulating them on ditching all the old left-wing policies in favour of those which were far closer to ours. Commending them for continuing our work. And so on.

This would likely have really pissed off the far left and Labour traditionalists, and hopefully have shaken at least some of the electorate out of the walking lobotomy of conformity and got them questioning the actual political positions of the parties, rather than simply 'NooLab good; Tory baaaaad' which seemed to be the extent of many peoples thinking for many years.

Problem with that was the conservative record in office from 92 to 97 .... they demonstrated economic incompetence.

Labour up that point had been quite sound and made all the right noises about prudence and the end of boom&bust

Added to this the Tory party itself was coming apart over EU membership. 
The Tory leader in 97 had to provide new ideas and a new direction the party would follow 

This is *exactly* what I mean by 'narrative' and spin and perception overtaking reality. The 'Tory mismanagement of the economy' idea took hold, because people had an interest in the idea taking hold, and nulab were firmly in bed with big finance by then, but it didn't have a whole lot of substance.

The impact of Black Wednesday was, in the bigger scheme of things, far less than doomsayers claimed at the time and, more importantly, by 1997 the economy was booming and the ERM debacle should've been relegated to sidenote status.

By way of comparison. The estimated 'cost' of Black Wednesday was about £3.3 billion. The estimated cost of the lowball sale of gold reserves was about £7 billion. (And I don't even consider that to be *that* big of a deal either).

I'm highly skeptical of the very nature of 'economics' anyway, and question its fundamental importance. It's a big house of cards, quite 1984ish in truth, and for individuals life will carry on regardless. The idea that big economic events in themselves (rather than correlated spin-off events) somehow have a uniform, collective impact is always bullshit scaremongery.

[Toylyyev]

Short self-sufficiency brief for the carlton43 Ministry of Power.

The UK did remain a net energy exporter until 2004... more or less so as the link below is based on the skewed Primary Energy convention.

www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-browser?country=UK&fuel=Imports/exports&indicator=NetImports

Though as far as i can remember it was known by Summer 97 that this situation would reverse over the medium term. These days the self-sufficiency ratio hovers around the two-thirds mark with natural gas responsible for again about two thirds of the deficit, and for now the only form where a declaration of dependence would seem appropriate as long as one stays clear of Juche ideology equivalents. 

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1050058/ET_1.1_JAN_22.xlsx
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1050060/ET_1.2_JAN_22.xlsx

Over the last four years a bit less than half of the natural gas was home grown, with biomethane adding close to a further percent at the latest. Domestic use and electricity generation make up the two large chunks of domestic consumption.

The most realistic way in 1997 to get rid of most of that deficit over the last 25 years would have been increased deployment of electricity generation/interconnectivity and competent building policies. Incidentally the UK owes what it got of the former to Lib Dem initiatives, whereas the pre-97 Renewables Obligation has a decent claim for the worst scheme ever devised. Among others it managed to scrap the early lead the UK had in wind turbine construction expertise.  And the latter did prove too much of an ask for all of the native political capacities at work up to last time i checked a few years ago.

What i really love about the electricity grid is that its one of the best world peace makers we have.

[slon]

Feb 11, 2022 19:37:35 GMT sirbenjamin said:

Feb 11, 2022 17:19:16 GMT slon said:

Problem with that was the conservative record in office from 92 to 97 .... they demonstrated economic incompetence.

Labour up that point had been quite sound and made all the right noises about prudence and the end of boom&bust

Added to this the Tory party itself was coming apart over EU membership. 
The Tory leader in 97 had to provide new ideas and a new direction the party would follow 

This is *exactly* what I mean by 'narrative' and spin and perception overtaking reality. The 'Tory mismanagement of the economy' idea took hold, because people had an interest in the idea taking hold, and nulab were firmly in bed with big finance by then, but it didn't have a whole lot of substance.

The impact of Black Wednesday was, in the bigger scheme of things, far less than doomsayers claimed at the time and, more importantly, by 1997 the economy was booming and the ERM debacle should've been relegated to sidenote status.

By way of comparison. The estimated 'cost' of Black Wednesday was about £3.3 billion. The estimated cost of the lowball sale of gold reserves was about £7 billion. (And I don't even consider that to be *that* big of a deal either).

I'm highly skeptical of the very nature of 'economics' anyway, and question its fundamental importance. It's a big house of cards, quite 1984ish in truth, and for individuals life will carry on regardless. The idea that big economic events in themselves (rather than correlated spin-off events) somehow have a uniform, collective impact is always bullshit scaremongery.

It didn't seem like that, and the problems caused were not just about the ERM.

It started with a huge property boom based on cheap money, profits from privatizations, deregulation of financial services, and 100% + mortgages 
Then to put the tin hat on it the decision to phase out double income tax relief, but allow 6 months warning so giving an added boost to the market which was overheated anyway.

When reality check happened in the form of black Wednesday a lot of people were left looking at negative equity while interest rates headed skywards with the government floundering around in a total panic.
It is difficult to forget.