peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
Posts: 8,473 
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Post by peterl on Nov 19, 2021 23:57:08 GMT
If at first you don't succeed, vote vote vote again. Well, that's what the Leavers did after losing in the 70's. The EU of today is not the same as the EEC in 1975. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Nov 20, 2021 1:04:22 GMT
If at first you don't succeed, vote vote vote again. Well, that's what the Leavers did after losing in the 70's. Modern Euroscepticism is not a continuity No campaign from 1975. It grew out of the changes around 1990 - the Bruges speech, the ERM, Maastricht and so forth. It turned on what the project was now not what it was in 1975. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Nov 20, 2021 1:06:03 GMT
Modern Euroscepticism is not a continuity No campaign from 1975. It grew out of the changes around 1990 - the Bruges speech, the ERM, Maastricht and so forth. It turned on what the project was now not what it was in 1975. Not so, but only because the thickies hadn't realised what they were signing up to in the 1970s. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Nov 20, 2021 1:11:00 GMT
The Labour Party wanted to stop Brexit?! I remember a Labourite commenting on the wording of fundraising emails and upon hearing that the Conservatives had sent out an email with the subject "Jeremy Corbyn is trying to stop Brexit" he said he wished he could receive an email with that subject from Labour. As I recall their manifesto included a commitment to another referendum. That was certainly interpreted by all Leavers as a democratic outrage designed to take their candy away by... Erm.. Voting Neverendums are not democratic. But that did not make Labour a Remain party and your party attacked it over that. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Nov 20, 2021 7:01:05 GMT
Modern Euroscepticism is not a continuity No campaign from 1975. It grew out of the changes around 1990 - the Bruges speech, the ERM, Maastricht and so forth. It turned on what the project was now not what it was in 1975. Not so, but only because the thickies hadn't realised what they were signing up to in the 1970s.
I wonder if that was to do with people in political parties doing their usual thing of not telling 'thickies' the truth about what they were signing up to in the first place.
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Post by tonyhill on Nov 20, 2021 7:23:47 GMT
I've just finished reading David Kynaston's latest volume of history, this time dealing with 1962. The Macmillan government was preparing to apply to join the EEC and Kynaston includes a lot of quotations from politicians and members of the public relating to the debate on our possible membership. He is, of course, arguing that 1962 was the year that was 'on the cusp', and the date at which Britain began to change gradually into the country we are today, so his quotations are clearly going to be those which support his argument, but it was surprising to me how many of those opposed in 1962 to our membership did so on the grounds that the UK would suffer a loss of sovereignty and expressed fears about a federal Europe (the other main objection was the damage to the Commonwealth which I don't think features much today).
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Post by andrewp on Nov 20, 2021 8:58:59 GMT
Ben Bradshaw would be surprised that Labour have won in Bere Ferrers in the past
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 20, 2021 11:28:34 GMT
Ben Bradshaw would be surprised that Labour have won in Bere Ferrers in the past Is anybody going to put him straight? |
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 20, 2021 11:31:17 GMT
Ben Bradshaw would be surprised that Labour have won in Bere Ferrers in the past Is anybody going to put him straight? That, of course, would be impossible! |
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Post by andrew111 on Nov 20, 2021 11:41:58 GMT
As I recall their manifesto included a commitment to another referendum. That was certainly interpreted by all Leavers as a democratic outrage designed to take their candy away by... Erm.. Voting Neverendums are not democratic. But that did not make Labour a Remain party and your party attacked it over that. Well, of course we criticised them for all the years Corbyn woukd not let them commit to staying in the Single Market or backing the People's vote campaign. But when they did, we should have welcomed them into our tent instead of going undemocratic in the majoritarian way typical of the Tories. "neverendums" were never proposed by anyone and were always just fake news from your side. Don't know why you still go on about it |
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Post by timrollpickering on Nov 20, 2021 13:32:20 GMT
Ben Bradshaw would be surprised that Labour have won in Bere Ferrers in the past Ben "The French take culture seriously. We had me" Bradshaw not knowing what he's talking about? Well I never! |
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Post by timrollpickering on Nov 20, 2021 13:34:35 GMT
"neverendums" were never proposed by anyone and were always just fake news from your side. Don't know why you still go on about it Your party supported a second referendum for a while as did Labour later. No amount of nonsense about "a People's Vote" or changing the option you didn't want to vote for changes that. You wanted another vote to Remain and that would have been a neverendum. |
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Toylyyev
Mebyon Kernow
CJ Fox avatar
Posts: 1,067
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Post by Toylyyev on Nov 20, 2021 14:02:41 GMT
As I recall their manifesto included a commitment to another referendum. That was certainly interpreted by all Leavers as a democratic outrage designed to take their candy away by... Erm.. Voting . But that did not make Labour a Remain party and your party attacked it over that. Why? A counter-example that springs to mind is Switzerland having voted five times to date on nuclear power plants. Accessorily they didn't just promulgate these consultations by ukas. Disclaimer: My point of interest would be them "people's votes".  |
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Post by andrewp on Nov 20, 2021 14:10:08 GMT
Ben Bradshaw would be surprised that Labour have won in Bere Ferrers in the past Is anybody going to put him straight? The replies he gets are almost 100% the Progressive alliance advocates . No one has put him right yet. |
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Post by andrew111 on Nov 21, 2021 20:41:36 GMT
"neverendums" were never proposed by anyone and were always just fake news from your side. Don't know why you still go on about it Your party supported a second referendum for a while as did Labour later. No amount of nonsense about "a People's Vote" or changing the option you didn't want to vote for changes that. You wanted another vote to Remain and that would have been a neverendum. You seem to have invented a new singular meaning for "neverendum". If a second vote had confirmed the 2016 decision and added clarity to the destination, we would have been out with a good deal more consensus than now. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Nov 21, 2021 20:54:33 GMT
"A series of referendums on the same issue held in an attempt to achieve an unpopular result."
i.e. vote again in hope of getting a different outcome. That is precisely in line with my use.
And many made clear they wouldn't accept another vote to Leave:
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batman
Labour
Posts: 12,399
Member is Online
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Post by batman on Nov 21, 2021 22:59:01 GMT
WEST DEVON DC; Bere Ferrers (Lib Dem resigned) Candidates: BLACKMAN, Angela (Conservative) MACIEJOWSKA, Judy Sara (Green) REED, Graham Richard (Liberal Democrat) SAXBY, Isabel Angela (Labour) Judy Maciejowska used to be a leading Green figure in Richmond-upon-Thames and was both a parliamentary & a local candidate. I knew her quite well & actually sold her a clarinet quite a number of years ago. I had wondered where she had gone, this answers that particular question. I think there should be a bonus point in the prediction competition for anyone who has ever sold a musical instrument to one of the candidates. although that might appear to put me at an unfair advantage, it's unlikely to recur for a long time, and the longer the period since I went out of business the less likely it becomes. |
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Post by andrew111 on Nov 22, 2021 0:54:10 GMT
"A series of referendums on the same issue held in an attempt to achieve an unpopular result." i.e. vote again in hope of getting a different outcome. That is precisely in line with my use. And many made clear they wouldn't accept another vote to Leave: As you are probably well aware, she clarified her position to Sophy Ridge a couple of days later and said that she would unequivocally respect a second vote to Leave. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 22, 2021 2:47:11 GMT
"A series of referendums on the same issue held in an attempt to achieve an unpopular result." i.e. vote again in hope of getting a different outcome. That is precisely in line with my use. And many made clear they wouldn't accept another vote to Leave: As you are probably well aware, she clarified her position to Sophy Ridge a couple of days later and said that she would unequivocally respect a second vote to Leave. Quite. The problem is that some people consider that a vote at a single point in time about a particular issue means that such an issue is resolved in perpetuity. If that were the case then we may as well stop this whole election malarky and accept the particular circumstances that are in place at the moment in elected bodies up and down this land and that everyone who is not in power or has their own way should just accept things for what they are and do absolutely nothing to try and change things. But in reality, well in a democracy at least, and we still have a semi-functioning one, questions are never 100% settled, the people on the other side of issues are never going to fold in and not try to change things and, in the unfortunate situation where referendums have become the norm, a development that I deeply regret, pursuit of them as a way of simplistically trying to change things is easier than ever. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,925
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 22, 2021 11:28:28 GMT
"A series of referendums on the same issue held in an attempt to achieve an unpopular result." i.e. vote again in hope of getting a different outcome. That is precisely in line with my use. And many made clear they wouldn't accept another vote to Leave: As you are probably well aware, she clarified her position to Sophy Ridge a couple of days later and said that she would unequivocally respect a second vote to Leave. I suspect there may have been a few "interesting" discussions in the interim  |
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