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Post by andrew111 on Oct 17, 2021 11:01:33 GMT
Seeing as they didn't stand in 2019, and in 2017 they got 1.8%, they're probably better off hanging on to their Β£500.Β The Greens got 8% at the last local elections in Southend - a very respectable showing, and would certainly save their deposit comfortably if either Labour or Liberal Democrats didn't stand, and might do so anyway at a by-election.Β Regardless of the circumstances there are lots of people who won't vote Conservative, and would choose to exercise their right to vote against them, rather than simply abstain.Β If you look at Batley and Spen, the frustrated anti-Labour voters went mainly for the English Democrats and other far right Parties, not for more neutral Independents. My conclusion from that woukd be that more sensible voters decided to stay home or vote Labour rather than vote anti-Labour. Of course we can't know how any mainstream Party (other than Labour) would have done in Batley and Spen and almost certainly will not get to find out in Southend. |
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Post by andrew111 on Oct 17, 2021 11:10:01 GMT
I know it wasnβt in Jo Coxβs case but a couple of by-elections where Tory MPs got killed by the IRA were fully contested. I donβt know the context then of course or how controversial it was or not. I can certainly recall arguments that Enfield Southgate in 1984 shouldn't have been contested by the other "main" parties. And this gained currency after the LibDems actually won Eastbourne in 1990, though the clumsy Tory attempts to make it an issue were undoubtedly a factor there. The context was a bit different in that the IRA murders were seen as an organised attack on our democracy, whereas no organisation claimed responsibility for the murder of Jo Cox. How much that would work now as an argument is less clear. The precedent for uncontested by-elections in the case of murder has been set. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 21,554
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Post by neilm on Oct 17, 2021 11:21:02 GMT
It is an attack on democracy by the establishment that this will be largely uncontested. I am disappointed with both Labour and the Greens.
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 17, 2021 11:24:35 GMT
It is an attack on democracy by the establishment that this will be largely uncontested. I am disappointed with both Labour and the Greens. I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? |
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 10,119
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Post by Tony Otim on Oct 17, 2021 11:33:31 GMT
It is an attack on democracy by the establishment that this will be largely uncontested. I am disappointed with both Labour and the Greens. I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? Which of course led to the SNP getting their first ever MP... Still not really an exact parallel to the situation today . |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Oct 17, 2021 11:39:11 GMT
I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? Which of course led to the SNP getting their first ever MP... Still not really an exact parallel to the situation today . Not at all comparable. There was an electoral truce because the parties were in coalition. Democracy was effectively suspended due to WW2 (obviously there 'should' have been a general election within that time frame). And of course this applied to by-elections casued by resignations every bit as much as those caused by death, so the comparison is moronic. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 21,554
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Post by neilm on Oct 17, 2021 11:43:10 GMT
It is an attack on democracy by the establishment that this will be largely uncontested. I am disappointed with both Labour and the Greens. I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? This is not comparable. |
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CatholicLeft
Co-operative Party
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 4,296
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Post by CatholicLeft on Oct 17, 2021 11:58:12 GMT
It is an attack on democracy by the establishment that this will be largely uncontested. I am disappointed with both Labour and the Greens. I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? However, Richard Acland's Commonwealth Party did contest the wartime byelections as a de-facto Labour challenge, gaining Eddisbury, Skipton and Chelmsford, while Tom Driburg gained Malden as an Independent with the active support of the Commonwealth Party. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 17, 2021 12:03:47 GMT
It is an attack on democracy by the establishment that this will be largely uncontested. I am disappointed with both Labour and the Greens. I might not put it quite as strongly, but I think it's the wrong approach. A quiet, respectful by-election* contested by all the major parties would (IMO) be the appropriate course of action. * Who knows, the idea might catch on more widely. |
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finsobruce
Labour
Everyone ought to go careful in a city like this.
Posts: 36,666 
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 17, 2021 12:08:07 GMT
I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? However, Richard Acton's Commonwealth Party did contest the wartime byelections as a de-facto Labour challenge, gaining Eddisbury, Skipton and Chelmsford, while Tom Driburg gained Malden as an Independent with the active support of the Commonwealth Party. And there were several other near misses including the Bristol Central by election in 1943 when Jennie Lee stood as an Independent Labour candidate.
Lee having previously been an ILP MP, you would have thought they would have supported her, but instead the General Secretary of the ILP John McNair stood as well, arguably robbing her of victory, although the 830 votes he got wasn't equivalent to the eventual Tory/National majority of 1,559, which was actually higher than the 1935 majority of 1,516!
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 17, 2021 12:10:57 GMT
Which of course led to the SNP getting their first ever MP... Still not really an exact parallel to the situation today . Not at all comparable. There was an electoral truce because the parties were in coalition. Democracy was effectively suspended due to WW2 (obviously there 'should' have been a general election within that time frame). And of course this applied to by-elections casued by resignations every bit as much as those caused by death, so the comparison is moronic. A Coalition seems to be irrelevant - it didnβt stop the Conservatives throwing the kitchen sink at Eastleigh following Chris Huhneβs resignation or the LDs standing in Corby and Newark. I specifically mentioned deaths by natural causes to illustrate that there werenβt the extenuating circumstances of being killed in action, arguably as emotionally traumatic as murder. My point, however βmoronicβ, was that the WWII truce was negotiated by the three Chief Whips, just as the decision not to contest Batley and Spen and it seems Southend West has been taken by the parties, and whether it was met with the same criticism from outside Westminster (with the letters page of The Times being that eraβs equivalent of Facebook) as the most recent decisions from non constituents complaining about the denial of democracy. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Oct 17, 2021 12:21:41 GMT
Not at all comparable. There was an electoral truce because the parties were in coalition. Democracy was effectively suspended due to WW2 (obviously there 'should' have been a general election within that time frame). And of course this applied to by-elections casued by resignations every bit as much as those caused by death, so the comparison is moronic. A Coalition seems to be irrelevant - it didnβt stop the Conservatives throwing the kitchen sink at Eastleigh following Chris Huhneβs resignation or the LDs standing in Corby and Newark. I specifically mentioned deaths by natural causes to illustrate that there werenβt the extenuating circumstances of being killed in action, arguably as emotionally traumatic as murder. My point, however βmoronicβ, was that the WWII truce was negotiated by the three Chief Whips, just as the decision not to contest Batley and Spen and it seems Southend West has been taken by the parties, and whether it was met with the same criticism from outside Westminster (with the letters page of The Times being that eraβs equivalent of Facebook) as the most recent decisions from non constituents complaining about the denial of democracy. And I was pointing out that there weren't even the extenuating circumstances of the MP dying, which is why the comparison is irrelevent. It was a wartime coalition and there was a general truce between the parties (including not holding a general election when one would have been due). Totally different circumstances to the 2010-15 coalition government and totally different to the by-elections we are discussing here |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Oct 17, 2021 12:24:48 GMT
I wonder if the letters pages of The Times were full of such rot during World War 2 when by-elections, even of members who had simply died of natural causes, were uncontested by the other mainstream parties? However, Richard Acland's Commonwealth Party did contest the wartime byelections as a de-facto Labour challenge, gaining Eddisbury, Skipton and Chelmsford, while Tom Driburg gained Malden as an Independent with the active support of the Commonwealth Party. Also Charles Frederick White won West Derbyshire as an Independent Labour candidate with the backing of the Common Wealth mob. He had been the official Labour candidate in the previous (1938) by-election and was re-elected as Labour in 1945 |
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Post by johnloony on Oct 17, 2021 12:25:08 GMT
Not at all comparable. There was an electoral truce because the parties were in coalition. ... No there wasn't. There was an electoral truce because there was a war on. A major grand coalition of all three main parties in peacetime would not have resulted in an electoral truce (and it didn't before 1939); the war-time electoral truce would still have happened even if it had been a single-party Conservative government. |
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Post by DavΔ±d Boothroyd on Oct 17, 2021 12:34:25 GMT
The Second World War electoral truce was agreed before the Coalition government took over. There were complaints within the Labour Party - what looks to have been a Communist fellow travelling Labour student group passed a resolution attacking the war as imperialist and denouncing the electoral truce (the Communist Party also attacked Labour for allying with the Conservatives). Clement Attlee responded by saying it was merely an electoral truce, not a political one, and Labour would criticise the government "while taking care that in doing so we do not play into the hands of Herr Hitler". After Labour did enter the government, and then the USSR entered the war so the Communists changed their view, this criticism went away.
There was a letter to The Times in 1943 arguing that getting post-war reconstruction legislation through Parliament was difficult because many MPs were just nominated under the political truce and not elected. And Lord Hinchingbrooke, who was elected unopposed as Conservative MP for South Dorset under the electoral truce in 1941, criticised it in a letter in December 1943 partly because it was unhealthy to maintain the large Conservative majority, and also because it was time to allow voters to choose their new MP on the basis of policies and personalities.
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finsobruce
Labour
Everyone ought to go careful in a city like this.
Posts: 36,666
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 17, 2021 12:39:46 GMT
There was, of course, also an electoral truce during World War I and again, most by elections were unopposed.
Apart from by elections in Ireland the first contest was in Glasgow Central in July 1915 when the Unionist candidate was opposed by another Unionist.
At the May 1918 Ross by election the Conservatives were opposed by a candidate from the National Farmers Union!
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finsobruce
Labour
Everyone ought to go careful in a city like this.
Posts: 36,666
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 17, 2021 12:53:54 GMT
However, Richard Acland's Commonwealth Party did contest the wartime byelections as a de-facto Labour challenge, gaining Eddisbury, Skipton and Chelmsford, while Tom Driburg gained Malden as an Independent with the active support of the Commonwealth Party. Also Charles Frederick White won West Derbyshire as an Independent Labour candidate with the backing of the Common Wealth mob. He had been the official Labour candidate in the previous (1938) by-election and was re-elected as Labour in 1945 And his father (also Charles White) had been Liberal MP for the seat (1918-23).
There was a third candidate at the 1944 by election, and in 1945, Robert Goodall, a farm baliff, who stood as an "Agriculturalist". Goodall promised to send out no election address or leaflets and to make only one speech, which he made in the market place at Ashbourne. He was disowned by the NFU.
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CatholicLeft
Co-operative Party
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 4,296
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Post by CatholicLeft on Oct 17, 2021 13:52:37 GMT
However, Richard Acland's Commonwealth Party did contest the wartime byelections as a de-facto Labour challenge, gaining Eddisbury, Skipton and Chelmsford, while Tom Driburg gained Malden as an Independent with the active support of the Commonwealth Party. Also Charles Frederick White won West Derbyshire as an Independent Labour candidate with the backing of the Common Wealth mob. He had been the official Labour candidate in the previous (1938) by-election and was re-elected as Labour in 1945 There was much talk about him at the 1986 West Derbyshire byelection with older Labour MPs talking about that byelection victory. |
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Post by ππΎπΊππβπΆπΎππ on Oct 17, 2021 16:38:20 GMT
A Coalition seems to be irrelevant - it didnβt stop the Conservatives throwing the kitchen sink at Eastleigh following Chris Huhneβs resignation Ironically that probably helped the Lib Dems win. If we'd been on best Coalition bollocks mode, UKIP would have stood an excellent chance in that by-election. |
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Post by ππΎπΊππβπΆπΎππ on Oct 17, 2021 16:43:57 GMT
They only don't stand against Speakers who either were Labour before or end up defecting to Labour afterwards. They stood against Speakers Weatherill, Lloyd, and Hylton-Foster. Because that was obvious back in 2010, of course  In any case, now that the precedent has been set with Bercow there must be a good chance it will be followed in future. It wasn't shout-it-from-the-rooftops level, but he'd already had Balls' feelers put onto him during the Brown administration and was well on the way to doing a Quentin Davies. It was funny how all those Labour MPs voted for Bercow, rather than the much better-qualified Sir George Young. |
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