Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2021 18:06:12 GMT
I don't agree. Mike's misanthropy goes back way before the pandemic and his response to it I take in that context, alongside the apparent complete lack of empathy thus his entirely judgemental attitude towards any views that are not his own that if anything appear to have got worse over the last 18 months. But I've said as much before and he doesn't care about what any of us have to say (predictably) so I tend let him just wallow in his somewhat dispiriting world rather than being concerned or over-engaging. Misanthropy is an interesting term. I don't believe he hates the human race, or even has contempt for it. There is a difference between that and disagreeing with how current society is organised and its values. There is nothing wrong with questioning keeping people alive. I know YellowPeril wants Eileen to live as long as possible. I do however sometimes wonder if my sister would have been better off dieing in 2012 given all her problems since. That's not to say I don't want her here, but omne wonders if keeping her alive so long is right. At times I also wonder the same about my mum as she is disintegrating to not being herself. I don't think that's misanthropic, in May ways you could say its from love of humans. Just because someone challenges the accepted wisdom of longevity, doesn't make them misanthropic. But that's got absolutely nothing to do with arguments about COVID |
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 23, 2021 18:06:57 GMT
There is a twitter feed 'Nihilists for Labour'. It's meant to be a spoof, but it sometimes reads like Mike's posts on here.
Mmmm we have a moderator making what I consider near inappropriate posts about a board member here. Maybe said moderator should consider his position as a moderator.
Just because one challenges many tenents of human thought one is not necessarily a nihilist per se. Many of our accepted wisdom's of today would have been considered nihilstic a few hundred years ago.
People should think very carefully before throwing these words around.
I think in the context of this board there are worst things than being called a nihilist. However I do think it is a bit impolite to discuss people in the third person, and I try to refrain from this. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Jul 23, 2021 18:13:30 GMT
I don't agree. Mike's misanthropy goes back way before the pandemic and his response to it I take in that context, alongside the apparent complete lack of empathy thus his entirely judgemental attitude towards any views that are not his own that if anything appear to have got worse over the last 18 months. But I've said as much before and he doesn't care about what any of us have to say (predictably) so I tend let him just wallow in his somewhat dispiriting world rather than being concerned or over-engaging. Misanthropy is an interesting term. I don't believe he hates the human race, or even has contempt for it. There is a difference between that and disagreeing with how current society is organised and its values. There is nothing wrong with questioning keeping people alive. I know YellowPeril wants Eileen to live as long as possible. I do however sometimes wonder if my sister would have been better off dieing in 2012 given all her problems since. That's not to say I don't want her here, but omne wonders if keeping her alive so long is right. At times I also wonder the same about my mum as she is disintegrating to not being herself. I don't think that's misanthropic, in May ways you could say its from love of humans. Just because someone challenges the accepted wisdom of longevity, doesn't make them misanthropic. Mike & I have been posting on this site and it's predecessor for many many years. It's based on that bundle of experience, not what he's posted in the last couple of years alone. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 23, 2021 18:16:27 GMT
As always local issues are often important and invisible to outsiders, but I do wonder whether Labour’s selection of a Muslim candidate was unhelpful in this area. Electoral Calculus (not the most reliable, I know) thinks that Humberstone & Hamilton was one of two wards in Leicester that the Tories carried in the 2019 general election, the other being neighbouring Thurncourt. I don't know Leicester literally at all but it does seem highly likely that the Tory vote in Leicester East would be concentrated in the areas further from the City Centre especially if said area has a large population of people of Indian descent. In light of this, I think a Tory gain here was always going to be fairly likely unless Labour had nominated a popular Hindu community figure. Thurncourt is still a majority White ward and this ward isn't far off. These wards (and Evington) were always the areas which made the Tories competitive here back in the day. The Hindu population was 'only' 21% here in 2011 and it was 15% muslim (compared with over 70% Hindu in Latimer ward - now a byelection there would be interesting). So while shifts in the votes of Hindus will have been a major factor here, it may not have produced a Tory victory if there wasn't already a sizable Tory vote to build on and which is based on the white lower middle class. |
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Post by yellowperil on Jul 23, 2021 18:28:23 GMT
I am a little disturbed that my original post expressing my concern has led to a debate involving a number of members, and that had not been my expectation,or my intention. I don't think all the comments were helpful. I considered deleting the original post but think on balance that would be less than helpful, as it would destroy the context in which the replies were made,but I strongly suggest there is no further discussion here, unless Mike himself wishes to comment.
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 23, 2021 18:31:49 GMT
I am a little disturbed that my original post expressing my concern has led to a debate involving a number of members, and that had not been my expectation,or my intention. I don't think all the comments were helpful. I considered deleting the original post but think on balance that would be less than helpful, as it would destroy the context in which the replies were made,but I strongly suggest there is no further discussion here, unless Mike himself wishes to comment.
You never can tell the direction of any thread after any post.
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 23, 2021 18:34:50 GMT
I don't agree. Mike's misanthropy goes back way before the pandemic and his response to it I take in that context, alongside the apparent complete lack of empathy thus his entirely judgemental attitude towards any views that are not his own that if anything appear to have got worse over the last 18 months. But I've said as much before and he doesn't care about what any of us have to say (predictably) so I tend let him just wallow in his somewhat dispiriting world rather than being concerned or over-engaging. Misanthropy is an interesting term. I don't believe he hates the human race, or even has contempt for it. There is a difference between that and disagreeing with how current society is organised and its values. There is nothing wrong with questioning keeping people alive. I know YellowPeril wants Eileen to live as long as possible. I do however sometimes wonder if my sister would have been better off dieing in 2012 given all her problems since. That's not to say I don't want her here, but omne wonders if keeping her alive so long is right. At times I also wonder the same about my mum as she is disintegrating to not being herself. I don't think that's misanthropic, in May ways you could say its from love of humans. Just because someone challenges the accepted wisdom of longevity, doesn't make them misanthropic. Thanks for sharing these personal things, Ted (for so I will always think of you, Ted the Alien. The alternative self identity seems a tad nihilistic..) I think people should have the right to decide for themselves whether they live or die. (that is a deep seated bit of Liberalism for you). As part of some mutual aid work during the pandemic I have got to know a very interesting person who has tried to commit suicide several times. We have a deal where if she discusses this with me I will try to dissuade her but I will not be sending the police round to break her door down. My O-level English oral presentation was on "voluntary Euthanasia", a topic my father was very interested in, and my views have not changed over the years. On the other hand it is certainly not up to me to decide when anyone should die, whether I know them or not. That makes a policy that increases the likelihood of some people dying very difficult for me, and when "herd immunity" first raised its head, and at the same time I knew of someone who had been tested positive for Covid being discharged into a Care Home, I did wonder about the thinking of people in charge (mainly Cummings, tbh!. "Save money, let the unproductive depart a little early") So a policy of no lockdowns seems likely to me to condemn some people to die before they are ready. I have to be convinced that the alternative kills more people. It is not a black and white issue. I have trouble with people who think it is! |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 23, 2021 18:39:18 GMT
I am a little disturbed that my original post expressing my concern has led to a debate involving a number of members, and that had not been my expectation,or my intention. I don't think all the comments were helpful. I considered deleting the original post but think on balance that would be less than helpful, as it would destroy the context in which the replies were made,but I strongly suggest there is no further discussion here, unless Mike himself wishes to comment.
You never can tell the direction of any thread after any post.
True it is. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 23, 2021 18:48:58 GMT
Misanthropy is an interesting term. I don't believe he hates the human race, or even has contempt for it. There is a difference between that and disagreeing with how current society is organised and its values. There is nothing wrong with questioning keeping people alive. I know YellowPeril wants Eileen to live as long as possible. I do however sometimes wonder if my sister would have been better off dieing in 2012 given all her problems since. That's not to say I don't want her here, but omne wonders if keeping her alive so long is right. At times I also wonder the same about my mum as she is disintegrating to not being herself. I don't think that's misanthropic, in May ways you could say its from love of humans. Just because someone challenges the accepted wisdom of longevity, doesn't make them misanthropic. Thanks for sharing these personal things, Ted (for so I will always think of you, Ted the Alien. The alternative self identity seems a tad nihilistic..) I think people should have the right to decide for themselves whether they live or die. (that is a deep seated bit of Liberalism for you). As part of some mutual aid work during the pandemic I have got to know a very interesting person who has tried to commit suicide several times. We have a deal where if she discusses this with me I will try to dissuade her but I will not be sending the police round to break her door down. My O-level English oral presentation was on "voluntary Euthanasia", a topic my father was very interested in, and my views have not changed over the years. On the other hand it is certainly not up to me to decide when anyone should die, whether I know them or not. That makes a policy that increases the likelihood of some people dying very difficult for me, and when "herd immunity" first raised its head, and at the same time I knew of someone who had been tested positive for Covid being discharged into a Care Home, I did wonder about the thinking of people in charge (mainly Cummings, tbh!. "Save money, let the unproductive depart a little early") So a policy of no lockdowns seems likely to me to condemn some people to die before they are ready. I have to be convinced that the alternative kills more people. It is not a black and white issue. I have trouble with people who think it is!
Regarding lockdowns I think the time may have passed for them, I can see the arguement for them before the vaccine. To me its about balance.
Longevity has to be a personal decision, not for others to make for you, and yes we should definitly protect people from others whims. Not an easy balance at all. But living on and on for the sake of it, I don't know if I want to do that.
Plus maybe I'm more philosophical about when we go. Our time is our time at 30, 40, 50, 100 whether its from a car accident, cancer, covid, whatever. Make the most of life now, its over when its over.
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Merseymike
Independent
Posts: 40,439
Member is Online
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 23, 2021 18:56:46 GMT
Nothing much to add but:
1. I tend to avoid amateur psychology, particularly if I don't know the person concerned
2. Everyone here posts what they think and believes they are correct. I like lots of different views, not only those I agree with
3. I change my mind should I come to realise that what I thought before has inherent problems. I used to have a rather blasé view that the state would always act in a way which would promote individual rights if being led from the left. I don't think that any more and so I'm a lot more cautious about accepting what it says at face value
4..I've never valued seeking popularity very highly which is why I'd make a useless politician
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Post by yellowperil on Jul 23, 2021 19:01:55 GMT
Nothing much to add but: 1. I tend to avoid amateur psychology, particularly if I don't know the person concerned 2. Everyone here posts what they think and believes they are correct. I like lots of different views, not only those I agree with 3. I change my mind should I come to realise that what I thought before has inherent problems. I used to have a rather blasé view that the state would always act in a way which would promote individual rights if being led from the left. I don't think that any more and so I'm a lot more cautious about accepting what it says at face value 4..I've never valued seeking popularity very highly which is why I'd make a useless politician Actually I think that's quite helpful. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 23, 2021 19:08:46 GMT
I don't agree. Mike's misanthropy goes back way before the pandemic and his response to it I take in that context, alongside the apparent complete lack of empathy thus his entirely judgemental attitude towards any views that are not his own that if anything appear to have got worse over the last 18 months. But I've said as much before and he doesn't care about what any of us have to say (predictably) so I tend let him just wallow in his somewhat dispiriting world rather than being concerned or over-engaging. Misanthropy is an interesting term. I don't believe he hates the human race, or even has contempt for it. There is a difference between that and disagreeing with how current society is organised and its values. There is nothing wrong with questioning keeping people alive. I know YellowPeril wants Eileen to live as long as possible. I do however sometimes wonder if my sister would have been better off dieing in 2012 given all her problems since. That's not to say I don't want her here, but omne wonders if keeping her alive so long is right. At times I also wonder the same about my mum as she is disintegrating to not being herself. I don't think that's misanthropic, in May ways you could say its from love of humans. Just because someone challenges the accepted wisdom of longevity, doesn't make them misanthropic. My feeling, from experience of a grandparent and both parents, is that there's a right time to let go, but it certainly isn't determined by calendar years. It's determined by quality of life. A 68 year old can have a terrible quality of live; a 90 year old can be living the dream. What some of us find difficult is the idea that because the median age at death of a particular condition (in this case Covid) is 82 this somehow justifies writing them off. And, again from personal experience, the idea that the medical profession is obsessed with prolonging life inappropriately is just not the case. When my mother was admitted one night aged around 84 the doctor blithely announced "she's over 80, and she's got a diagnosis of dementia so we won't resuscitate". I put her (the doctor) back in her box; my mother still had a quality of life worth protecting. No, I would not agree to a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate). Three years later I was happy to agree with her GP that intervention would no longer be appropriate. There would be no further trips to A&E, she would slip away peacefully at her care home. That is how it should be done. Agreement between medics and family, in the best interests of the person. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 23, 2021 19:19:56 GMT
There is a twitter feed 'Nihilists for Labour'. It's meant to be a spoof, but it sometimes reads like Mike's posts on here. Mmmm we have a moderator making what I consider near inappropriate posts about a board member here. Maybe said moderator should consider his position as a moderator. Just because one challenges many tenents of human thought one is not necessarily a nihilist per se. Many of our accepted wisdom's of today would have been considered nihilstic a few hundred years ago. People should think very carefully before throwing these words around.
If somebody wishes to "Report" my post I'm sure my fellow Mods will consider it. My reference was to a twitter feed intended to provide amusement. The definition of nihilism in a political and historical context I find is a position "which found nothing to approve of in the established social order" which hardly seems distant from the views expressed by Mike following this by-election, and more broadly. But if he feels it was in any way offensive I'm happy to withdraw. |
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 23, 2021 19:40:37 GMT
Thanks for sharing these personal things, Ted (for so I will always think of you, Ted the Alien. The alternative self identity seems a tad nihilistic..) I think people should have the right to decide for themselves whether they live or die. (that is a deep seated bit of Liberalism for you). As part of some mutual aid work during the pandemic I have got to know a very interesting person who has tried to commit suicide several times. We have a deal where if she discusses this with me I will try to dissuade her but I will not be sending the police round to break her door down. My O-level English oral presentation was on "voluntary Euthanasia", a topic my father was very interested in, and my views have not changed over the years. On the other hand it is certainly not up to me to decide when anyone should die, whether I know them or not. That makes a policy that increases the likelihood of some people dying very difficult for me, and when "herd immunity" first raised its head, and at the same time I knew of someone who had been tested positive for Covid being discharged into a Care Home, I did wonder about the thinking of people in charge (mainly Cummings, tbh!. "Save money, let the unproductive depart a little early") So a policy of no lockdowns seems likely to me to condemn some people to die before they are ready. I have to be convinced that the alternative kills more people. It is not a black and white issue. I have trouble with people who think it is!
Regarding lockdowns I think the time may have passed for them, I can see the arguement for them before the vaccine. To me its about balance.
Longevity has to be a personal decision, not for others to make for you, and yes we should definitly protect people from others whims. Not an easy balance at all. But living on and on for the sake of it, I don't know if I want to do that.
Plus maybe I'm more philosophical about when we go. Our time is our time at 30, 40, 50, 100 whether its from a car accident, cancer, covid, whatever. Make the most of life now, its over when its over.
Well, I hope and expect that the time for lockdowns is over. That does not necessarily mean I think there should be no restrictions. We do have many many restrictions aimed at protecting our health, from clean (eg dog free) beaches, to not sending children down pits and up chimneys, not marrying your sister, and not selling people food prepared unhygienically. More recently smoking has been banned in pubs and restaurants and since I had become reluctant to go to pubs since I had to wash my hair and all my clothes every time I am happy with that. But some were very against. The biggest imposition on personal freedom around at the moment imo is the mental health act. Locking people up against their will, and when they have committed no crime and are not a danger to other people is just wrong.. |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,135 
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Post by Foggy on Jul 23, 2021 19:40:56 GMT
You never can tell the direction of any thread after any post.
True it is. I tend to presume the topic will soon turn to railway stations and/or puns. |
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 23, 2021 19:42:56 GMT
I tend to presume the topic will soon turn to railway stations and/or puns. Well, we are a Motley Crewe on here, so who knows? |
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Post by heslingtonian on Jul 23, 2021 20:11:42 GMT
Not sure if anyone mentioned it already but the Labour candidate in Congresbury was the Conservative Parliamentary candidate in Newport East at the 2010 General Election.
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Post by justin124 on Jul 23, 2021 20:43:06 GMT
Misanthropy is an interesting term. I don't believe he hates the human race, or even has contempt for it. There is a difference between that and disagreeing with how current society is organised and its values. There is nothing wrong with questioning keeping people alive. I know YellowPeril wants Eileen to live as long as possible. I do however sometimes wonder if my sister would have been better off dieing in 2012 given all her problems since. That's not to say I don't want her here, but omne wonders if keeping her alive so long is right. At times I also wonder the same about my mum as she is disintegrating to not being herself. I don't think that's misanthropic, in May ways you could say its from love of humans. Just because someone challenges the accepted wisdom of longevity, doesn't make them misanthropic. My feeling, from experience of a grandparent and both parents, is that there's a right time to let go, but it certainly isn't determined by calendar years. It's determined by quality of life. A 68 year old can have a terrible quality of live; a 90 year old can be living the dream. What some of us find difficult is the idea that because the median age at death of a particular condition (in this case Covid) is 82 this somehow justifies writing them off. And, again from personal experience, the idea that the medical profession is obsessed with prolonging life inappropriately is just not the case. |
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Post by justin124 on Jul 23, 2021 20:45:19 GMT
I can empathise with much of that. I reached the age of 67 earlier this month , and am conscious that this matches what was the UK male life expectancy as late as Spring 1965. By that time Churchill had died, Harold Wilson had been PM for five months - and I was about to sit the 11plus. The downside of being blessed with a very good memory is that quite distant events can still appear as if they happened recently. I do suffer a great deal from lethargy - rather than serious deep depression - but increasingly find myself contemplating those who have already departed rather those who remain here.The sense of having more in common with the former is growing whilst the latter diminishes. I have now reached the point where certain medical treatment options would be rejected were they ever to be suggested.. Hence, no chemotherapy for me and no Wharfarin either. Invitations for Bowel Cancer screening etc have been binned for several years in that I see no point given the decisions I have taken.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 23, 2021 21:01:08 GMT
I can empathise with much of that. I reached the age of 67 earlier this month , and am conscious that this matches what was the UK male life expectancy as late as Spring 1965. By that time Churchill had died, Harold Wilson had been PM for five months - and I was about to sit the 11plus. The downside of being blessed with a very good memory is that quite distant events can still appear as if they happened recently. I do suffer a great deal from lethargy - rather than serious deep depression - but increasingly find myself contemplating those who have already departed rather those who remain here.The sense of having more in common with the former is growing whilst the latter diminishes. I have now reached the point where certain medical treatment options would be rejected were they ever to be suggested.. Hence, no chemotherapy for me and no Wharfarin either. Invitations for Bowel Cancer screening etc have been binned for several years in that I see no point given the decisions I have taken. My wife has just asked me if I feel old. Prompted by watching a programme featuring four of the 1971 Lions tourists. Which was fifty years ago!And I don't. I'm 64, so not much younger than you. Still happy to do the bowel screening - if something showed up then I'd make the treatment decisions then. If warfarin or statins or pretty much anything else was medically indicated, I'd sign up to it. Intense radio or chemotherapy with all the side effects would depend on the prognosis. But I'm certainly not in the extend life at all costs, in all circumstances cast - but does such a cast exist outside some religious zealots? But it proves my point really. It's not about arbitrary age limits; it's about personal circumstances and - importantly - personal choice. EDIT. Just struck me the above isn't ideally structured. I'm not suggesting warfarin and/or statins are cancer treatments! |
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