J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,771 
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Post by J.G.Harston on Sept 3, 2021 19:25:44 GMT
"Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - that's what I say. (Well, all right, I admit Winston Churchill said it first.) "Democracy is the belief that the people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L Mencken "Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one. How's that again?" Lazarus Long. |
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sirbenjamin
IFP
True fame is reading your name written in graffiti, but without the words 'is a wanker' after it.
Posts: 4,979
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Post by sirbenjamin on Sept 3, 2021 19:26:42 GMT
There was a time when sucking a man's cock was technically illegal. But nobody actually got prosecuted. Not really. Now we live in a world where pointing out the fact that somebody may have sucked a man's cock is not only a 'hate crime' but actual hours of police time are dedicated to 'investigating' this 'crime'. We've previously ascertained that I've sucked more cocks than you. I know which world I would rather live in! Oh, for goodness sake. Life was bloody awful. Hanging around public toilets, having to live a lie, constantly under threat. That might appeal to you, but not to me. Give me a country where I can marry the man I love every time. Yes but my experience differs massively. Had I any wish to marry a man, it would not have been a problem. I am 15 years or so younger than you and cannot know what a more challenging experience would've been like. Being able to marry a woman, OTOH, was *hugely* challenging. To an extent that I suspect you can never understand. |
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Merseymike
Independent
Posts: 40,434
Member is Online
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 3, 2021 19:38:04 GMT
Oh, for goodness sake. Life was bloody awful. Hanging around public toilets, having to live a lie, constantly under threat. That might appeal to you, but not to me. Give me a country where I can marry the man I love every time. Yes but my experience differs massively. Had I any wish to marry a man, it would not have been a problem. I am 15 years or so younger than you and cannot know what a more challenging experience would've been like. Being able to marry a woman, OTOH, was *hugely* challenging. To an extent that I suspect you can never understand. For the first 12 years of our relationship it had no legal recognition at all. Because of my background I knew the importance of sorting out the legal position as best we could, but in an incredibly central area of life I was a second class citizen. For many years it was perfectly legal to discriminate in all sorts of areas and there was nothing at all I could have done about it. There just isn't a legal equivalent in heterosexual terms, although of course it's never straightforward in terms of individual relationships. But to think that it was better in the days before legal equality I find inconceivable. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,771
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Post by J.G.Harston on Sept 3, 2021 19:44:04 GMT
Yes but my experience differs massively. Had I any wish to marry a man, it would not have been a problem. I am 15 years or so younger than you and cannot know what a more challenging experience would've been like. Being able to marry a woman, OTOH, was *hugely* challenging. To an extent that I suspect you can never understand. For the first 12 years of our relationship it had no legal recognition at all. Because of my background I knew the importance of sorting out the legal position as best we could, but in an incredibly central area of life I was a second class citizen. For many years it was perfectly legal to discriminate in all sorts of areas and there was nothing at all I could have done about it. There just isn't a legal equivalent in heterosexual terms, although of course it's never straightforward in terms of individual relationships. But to think that it was better in the days before legal equality I find inconceivable. The closest hetro equivalent would be a couple who shack up together, have children, but refuse to get married, refuse to make a will, refuse to put the other person on the tenancy/mortgage, refuse have them added to their medical notes, and then go around complaining that they have no rights. Well of course you don't *YOU* *CHOSE* *NOT* *TO* *SIGN* *UP* *TO* *THEM*.
But at least in their case, it was their choice, and not imposed by law.
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,732
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Post by Chris from Brum on Sept 3, 2021 20:54:45 GMT
Well then, we must agree to disagree because for me, one of the most important things about a voting system - probably the most important single attribute it can possess - is that of empowering the voters to eject a Government that they have come to dislike.
It's a healthy feature of a free society, it's very good for democracy, and it concentrates the minds of ministers to know that the electorate can summarily dismiss them.
I wasn't a huge fan of the late George Brown, but he hit the nail on the head when after losing his seat at Belper in 1970 he ruefully said something to the effect that it wouldn't be a democracy if politicians didn't sometimes get democked.
This destructive power is vital. I think the great Tony Benn described getting rid of fptp as 'taking an axe to the roots of the tree of accountability'. Benn was wrong about many things. This is one example. |
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,732
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Post by Chris from Brum on Sept 3, 2021 20:57:05 GMT
..I'd be interested to hear what you plan to replace it with. Shoes. They can replace it all with attractive fancy shoes. "If god had meant us to walk, he'd have given us sneakers." |
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 3, 2021 21:15:39 GMT
I don't think many of the reforms which meant, for example, I'm no longer classed as a criminal, would have happened if left to referendum. There was a time when sucking a man's cock was technically illegal. But nobody actually got prosecuted. Not really. Now we live in a world where pointing out the fact that somebody may have sucked a man's cock is not only a 'hate crime' but actual hours of police time are dedicated to 'investigating' this 'crime'. We've previously ascertained that I've sucked more cocks than you. I know which world I would rather live in! And so do we! |
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