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Post by andrew111 on Jul 17, 2021 17:58:35 GMT
I honestly think that Wataboutery is the the highest form of political discourse I thought that was taking things out of context. Whataboutery is where someone implicitly accepts something's indefensible but highlights a similar offence from the opposite side. In this case I was arguing that the leaflet was perfectly acceptable, as were the Lib Dem leaflets. So it's not you saw here. There is another version of Whataboutery where someone is boasting about something to annoy you so you come up with a positive example. Eg. Man City fan: we won the Premier League Liverpool fan: how many times have you won the Champions League? |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 17, 2021 18:05:00 GMT
I thought that was taking things out of context. Whataboutery is where someone implicitly accepts something's indefensible but highlights a similar offence from the opposite side. In this case I was arguing that the leaflet was perfectly acceptable, as were the Lib Dem leaflets. So it's not you saw here. There is another version of Whataboutery where someone is boasting about something to annoy you so you come up with a positive example. Eg. Man City fan: we won the Premier League Liverpool fan: how many times have you won the Champions League? Is that the whataboutery variant?  |
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 17, 2021 18:21:43 GMT
There is another version of Whataboutery where someone is boasting about something to annoy you so you come up with a positive example. Eg. Man City fan: we won the Premier League Liverpool fan: how many times have you won the Champions League? Is that the whataboutery variant? A mutant strain. There is also WhatabouTory to worry about |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 17, 2021 18:53:49 GMT
Is that the whataboutery variant? A mutant strain. There is also WhatabouTory to worry aboutNo chance of the population developing herd immunity there I fear.  |
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cj
Socialist
These fragments I have shored against my ruins
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Post by cj on Jul 17, 2021 21:14:01 GMT
Then I do both Sometimes I am accepting things that other people - wrongly in my view - regard as unacceptable Sometimes I am implicitly accepting the unacceptable nature of the issue but drawing attention to the selective nature in which some members express their distress As I shall do on the subject of pasties shortly You do spoil us |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jul 19, 2021 10:03:13 GMT
I've known and represented a lot of Sikhs in my time, far fewer Hindus and Muslims. That experience certainly made me aware of how the politics and the history of the sub-continent played into UK politics. I can recall meeting some supporters of the International Sikh Youth Federation. I looked round the room of elderly men and asked what the age qualification was. I was told, with a laugh, that "we were all young once".
Yes, British politicians have to navigate with care. But I would say that Modi is a lightning rod and even his supporters would accept that he's no avuncular figure.
I am not sure how Modi being a lightning rod is relevant here? Are you saying the British PM shouldn’t meet Modi officially because of this? The photo used in the leaflet essentially implies that Johnson shouldn’t have met Modi and this meeting means that Johnson is Islamophobic. As Modi is the PM of India (irrespective of the desires of Labour members or Muslims and whatever his popularity levels among Indians or Hindus), such a stance would logically be anti Indian and that’s how it has been construed in India by whoever actually pays attention to such stuff. It’s not even like Cameron who could’ve been said to have gone overboard by participating in Modi’s Wembley event in 2015. Here Johnson was just meeting Modi at some official function. Up until 2012, Modi was banned from entry into this country. The ban ended largely because it wasn't feasible to bar the PM of India from the country, but given the reason he was banned from India, I don't think criticism of him can be perceived as beyond the pale. |
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Post by andrew111 on Jul 21, 2021 20:03:06 GMT
I am not sure how Modi being a lightning rod is relevant here? Are you saying the British PM shouldn’t meet Modi officially because of this? The photo used in the leaflet essentially implies that Johnson shouldn’t have met Modi and this meeting means that Johnson is Islamophobic. As Modi is the PM of India (irrespective of the desires of Labour members or Muslims and whatever his popularity levels among Indians or Hindus), such a stance would logically be anti Indian and that’s how it has been construed in India by whoever actually pays attention to such stuff. It’s not even like Cameron who could’ve been said to have gone overboard by participating in Modi’s Wembley event in 2015. Here Johnson was just meeting Modi at some official function. Up until 2012, Modi was banned from entry into this country. The ban ended largely because it wasn't feasible to bar the PM of India from the country, but given the reason he was banned from India, I don't think criticism of him can be perceived as beyond the pale. I note that Modi was prime minister of Gujerat during riots which some call a pogrom against Muslims. (and which is why he was banned from the UK, USA and various other countries. I also note there is a large group of Gujerati Muslims in Batley. I suspect the Labour leaflet featuring Modi may have some connection with these facts |
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right
Conservative
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Post by right on Jul 24, 2021 13:55:07 GMT
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jul 24, 2021 21:52:06 GMT
That ward is majority white and one of the least Hindu of Leicester East, as it was already heavily discussed in the by-election thread. |
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Post by ibfc on Jul 25, 2021 5:15:08 GMT
I am not sure how Modi being a lightning rod is relevant here? Are you saying the British PM shouldn’t meet Modi officially because of this? The photo used in the leaflet essentially implies that Johnson shouldn’t have met Modi and this meeting means that Johnson is Islamophobic. As Modi is the PM of India (irrespective of the desires of Labour members or Muslims and whatever his popularity levels among Indians or Hindus), such a stance would logically be anti Indian and that’s how it has been construed in India by whoever actually pays attention to such stuff. It’s not even like Cameron who could’ve been said to have gone overboard by participating in Modi’s Wembley event in 2015. Here Johnson was just meeting Modi at some official function. Up until 2012, Modi was banned from entry into this country. The ban ended largely because it wasn't feasible to bar the PM of India from the country, but given the reason he was banned from India, I don't think criticism of him can be perceived as beyond the pale. Which has nothing to do with what I actually said. The Indian government (as it is headed by Modi) and a majority of Hindus in India (Modi’s approval rating in India is around 52% which means that it is around 62% among Hindus) will regard any such criticism as an unfriendly act. The Labour Party and any UK government headed by Labour are of course free to do whatever they want but this is how it will be perceived among Hindus in India as well as the current Indian government. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 25, 2021 8:55:51 GMT
That ward is majority white and one of the least Hindu of Leicester East, as it was already heavily discussed in the by-election thread. Which featured a now infrequent (but always welcome) contribution from @strinity, who knows the area pretty well. It would certainly be interesting to know if Tory literature touched on communal stuff, and it might also be worth noting that turnout was very low. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 25, 2021 9:24:58 GMT
That ward is majority white and one of the least Hindu of Leicester East, as it was already heavily discussed in the by-election thread. Which featured a now infrequent (but always welcome) contribution from @strinity, who knows the area pretty well. It would certainly be interesting to know if Tory literature touched on communal stuff, and it might also be worth noting that turnout was very low. I noticed that too. I wonder whether it was down to a weak Labour campaign. Leicester East party appears to be in a mess and Vaz appears to be running it again. The Tories may well have mobilised enough from the white working class district. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 25, 2021 9:43:54 GMT
Up until 2012, Modi was banned from entry into this country. The ban ended largely because it wasn't feasible to bar the PM of India from the country, but given the reason he was banned from India, I don't think criticism of him can be perceived as beyond the pale. Which has nothing to do with what I actually said. The Indian government (as it is headed by Modi) and a majority of Hindus in India (Modi’s approval rating in India is around 52% which means that it is around 62% among Hindus) will regard any such criticism as an unfriendly act. The Labour Party and any UK government headed by Labour are of course free to do whatever they want but this is how it will be perceived among Hindus in India as well as the current Indian government. Important to remember that the Indian vote has always been more mixed than assumed. I remember that the secretaries of the IWA in Slough and Wycombe were both Conservative. That was back in the 70's and 80's Also if there has been a shift to the right in India it's not unreasonable to think that may be reflected here. That said my Indian contacts who are Labour people detest Modi. As I say Nav Mishra probably got it about right. It was a bit crass and I think unlikely to be repeated as a tactic |
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Post by ibfc on Jul 25, 2021 14:12:32 GMT
Which has nothing to do with what I actually said. The Indian government (as it is headed by Modi) and a majority of Hindus in India (Modi’s approval rating in India is around 52% which means that it is around 62% among Hindus) will regard any such criticism as an unfriendly act. The Labour Party and any UK government headed by Labour are of course free to do whatever they want but this is how it will be perceived among Hindus in India as well as the current Indian government. Important to remember that the Indian vote has always been more mixed than assumed. I remember that the secretaries of the IWA in Slough and Wycombe were both Conservative. That was back in the 70's and 80's Also if there has been a shift to the right in India it's not unreasonable to think that may be reflected here. That said my Indian contacts who are Labour people detest Modi. As I say Nav Mishra probably got it about right. It was a bit crass and I think unlikely to be repeated as a tactic Agree with all of that though I don't want to presume too much about how Hindus vote in the UK. I am however fairly sure that they are more sensitive to these issues than the US (probably due to the US diaspora being more drawn from the professional classes is my guess). |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 25, 2021 14:45:51 GMT
Important to remember that the Indian vote has always been more mixed than assumed. I remember that the secretaries of the IWA in Slough and Wycombe were both Conservative. That was back in the 70's and 80's Also if there has been a shift to the right in India it's not unreasonable to think that may be reflected here. That said my Indian contacts who are Labour people detest Modi. As I say Nav Mishra probably got it about right. It was a bit crass and I think unlikely to be repeated as a tactic Agree with all of that though I don't want to presume too much about how Hindus vote in the UK. I am however fairly sure that they are more sensitive to these issues than the US (probably due to the US diaspora being more drawn from the professional classes is my guess). It's complicated. In Harrow, for example, they have always been quite Conservative minded as are many Ugandan Asians and descendants such as our current Home Secretary In Leicester it's a bit more complicated because the key figure involved is a former MP who is actually a Roman Catholic and from Aden, of Goan heritage, Keith Vaz. I don't know how much you know of his activities and I'm not in the least bothered about the claims of what he did with rent boys, but after his retirement which wasn't altogether voluntary he has caused havoc in the local party by all accounts. He has taken up the Hindu cause entirely, in my opinion, for his own benefit |
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Post by timrollpickering on Jul 25, 2021 15:36:09 GMT
Did someone put Calgon in him?
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jul 25, 2021 17:39:05 GMT
Did someone put Calgon in him? Someone gave him a spin. |
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Post by iainbhx on Jul 26, 2021 4:14:43 GMT
Did someone put Calgon in him? Someone gave him a spin. He's rinsed enough people over the years. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jul 26, 2021 4:43:26 GMT
He's rinsed enough people over the years. Put them through the wringer. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2021 11:33:18 GMT
Jokes about coloureds never fade. Is that a form of black humour? |
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