islington
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Post by islington on Mar 22, 2021 19:55:52 GMT
Fewer than 30% of people are republicans, and even fewer of us actually think it's worth arguing about. And the number of people who are hostile to wearing a poppy is astronomically tiny. Your personal preferences aren't particularly relevant to Labour's actual electoral landscape. I'm not hostile in the sense that I object to others wearing them but I'd never wear a poppy myself. Also a republican. And I would imagine the vast majority of republicans vote Labour and should not be forced to state support for an institution they disagree with. The suggestios above are exactly what makes me not want to vote Labour, which is why I want them to accept the need for electoral reform and a split. As a matter of none of my business, Merseymike , have you read George Orwell's essay The Lion and the Unicorn? Written in the early part of WW2, at a time when a Nazi victory looked likelier than not, it's a discussion of how fundamental national identity is to people and, from a left-wing point of view, how important it is to recognize this. It's insightful, beautifully written, and at times profoundly moving. I warmly recommend it. You may not agree with it, but I promise you'll be glad you read it. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 20:15:19 GMT
I'm not hostile in the sense that I object to others wearing them but I'd never wear a poppy myself. Also a republican. And I would imagine the vast majority of republicans vote Labour and should not be forced to state support for an institution they disagree with. The suggestios above are exactly what makes me not want to vote Labour, which is why I want them to accept the need for electoral reform and a split. As a matter of none of my business, Merseymike , have you read George Orwell's essay The Lion and the Unicorn? Written in the early part of WW2, at a time when a Nazi victory looked likelier than not, it's a discussion of how fundamental national identity is to people and, from a left-wing point of view, how important it is to recognize this. It's insightful, beautifully written, and at times profoundly moving. I warmly recommend it. You may not agree with it, but I promise you'll be glad you read it. I have - and yes, he is an excellent writer. But I totally disagree with that outlook. I'm definitely the classic citizen of nowhere and perfectly happy to be so. Orwell's form of nationalistic workerism makes me shudder. But this is exactly why we need more parties... |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 20:19:09 GMT
It was Eric Heffer who remarked that if the USSR was Socialism then you can stuff it. I prefer Eric to Bob. Both sound on the EEC/EU though  Oh, as far as I'm concerned we left the day we voted to do so and should have got on with it |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Mar 22, 2021 20:28:07 GMT
And a big slap in the face of republicans. I also don't think condoning the jingolistic poppy cult is a good idea. Fewer than 30% of people are republicans, and even fewer of us actually think it's worth arguing about. And the number of people who are hostile to wearing a poppy is astronomically tiny. Your personal preferences aren't particularly relevant to Labour's actual electoral landscape. I agree. This was more a comment on the person proposing that those view should be forced and expressed on every Labour candidate. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2021 20:42:31 GMT
You're right that seats like Warwickshire North are probably gone, but there's a lot of traditional marginals which aren't really trending strongly either way which Labour will probably need to win back - and all of them are going to respond better to bread and butter issues than the woke social stuff. Carlisle, Keighley, Telford, Crawley, Ipswich, Gloucester, and a couple dozen more besides. These are ordinary places, who want ordinary governments who they feel are in touch. I don't even think Labour needs to be socially conservative to win them back - it just needs to be less about pronouns and more about daily issues. I suspect the next time Labour win, they'll do it by winning increasingly unlikely seats in metropolitan areas and on the periphery of large cities. Cities of London and Westminster, Filton and Bradley Stoke, Altrincham and Sale West, Wimbledon, Rushcliffe, Worthing East and Shoreham, and so on. The next time Labour win will include both some of those (F&BS definitely, A&SW and WE&S probably, Rushcliffe possibly) as well as Blyth Valley, Blackpool South and Workington. A winning coalition for Labour needs to include post-industrial heartland, metropolitan an university seats and socially mixed or average marginals |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2021 20:48:07 GMT
The problem is that when people have an idea of what they don't like about Labour, anything that they say or do that reinforces that view will damage them. Sir Keir kneeling in support of woke Oxbridge reject rioters with twonkish names in Bristol – he didn't even have to open his mouth to look soft on crime, soft on the causes of crime (to coin a phrase). If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people Not the way I'd have chosen to put it but this is also essentially right. I went to sixth form with a guy who came from what you'd call a working-class background and he always insisted that he was the archetype of a core Labour voter while supporting the death penalty, calling anyone on welfare a benefit fraud, having no interest in any form of wealth redistribution, being quite unsupportive of LGBT rights (and actively hostile to trans rights) and later on going down the rabbit holes of several right-wing and far-right conspiracy theories. Whatever their socio-economic background such a person a not part of Labour's core target group no matter how much they insist they are |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 22, 2021 20:48:26 GMT
It was Eric Heffer who remarked that if the USSR was Socialism then you can stuff it. I prefer Eric to Bob. Both sound on the EEC/EU though That's a little reminiscent of the 'he made the trains run on time' defence. Although nobody would say that about Bob Crow.. |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Mar 22, 2021 20:49:59 GMT
I suspect the next time Labour win, they'll do it by winning increasingly unlikely seats in metropolitan areas and on the periphery of large cities. Cities of London and Westminster, Filton and Bradley Stoke, Altrincham and Sale West, Wimbledon, Rushcliffe, Worthing East and Shoreham, and so on. The next time Labour win will include both some of those (F&BS definitely, A&SW and WE&S probably, Rushcliffe possibly) as well as Blyth Valley, Blackpool South and Workington. A winning coalition for Labour needs to include post-industrial heartland, metropolitan an university seats and socially mixed or average marginals Without starting a long chain of these - are Bassetlaw, Dudley/Wallsall North, Mansfield, etc out of the question now, given the size of the majorities? Equally if votes were 'lent' they could just as easily come back I guess. I'm sure however from '97-2010 the Tories must have thought Sherwood was out of reach, now look at it. I guess at some point a party has to concede that the demographic change is too much however, and it goes both ways of course, hard to believe Slough was Tory up to 97, as were the Lutons, and the area covered by Sefton Central. |
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right
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Post by right on Mar 22, 2021 20:55:45 GMT
One year of what may be a short parliament has been spent. Possible, though I doubt it. Not least because the Tories will surely want the new Westminster boundaries in place first. The net effect of new boundaries is not likely to be more than 20 seats. Very handy and definitely worth holding on for if holding an early election doesn't promise a landslide, but the effect of timing the election incorrectly could outweigh the boundaries by three or four to one. If Boris knows that he'll get a good majority and that he won't be resented for calling the election, it will be called. |
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right
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Post by right on Mar 22, 2021 21:00:21 GMT
They should reflect socialist principle and I don't think supporting capital punishment reflects what that should be about. I think it's more honest to accept some votes will be lost. Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? He was quite solid on the standard left wing social agenda, so it's possible that he broke with the death penalty in the same way he did on the EU (although he'd have seen it as keeping faith with the hard left that he grew up with, something that couldn't be said about the rope). |
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Post by justin124 on Mar 22, 2021 21:08:00 GMT
They should reflect socialist principle and I don't think supporting capital punishment reflects what that should be about. I think it's more honest to accept some votes will be lost. Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? Back in the 60s there were several pro-hanging Labour MPs - Frank Tomney and Jack Dunnett come to mind. It was never a party political issue - always a matter of conscience. A Bill to authorise such a Referendum would fail to get through the Commons - far too much Tory opposition now. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 21:36:27 GMT
Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? Back in the 60s there were several pro-hanging Labour MPs - Frank Tomney and Jack Dunnett come to mind. It was never a party political issue - always a matter of conscience. A Bill to authorise such a Referendum would fail to get through the Commons - far too much Tory opposition now. They were a very small minority though. The vast majority of Labour MPs were abolitionist and I honestly can't see anyone who wanted to reintroduce it being selected as a Labour candidate now. |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Mar 22, 2021 21:37:28 GMT
Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? Back in the 60s there were several pro-hanging Labour MPs - Frank Tomney and Jack Dunnett come to mind. It was never a party political issue - always a matter of conscience. A Bill to authorise such a Referendum would fail to get through the Commons - far too much Tory opposition now.Though the Home Secretary has previously expressed support? |
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Post by greenhert on Mar 22, 2021 22:02:49 GMT
The next time Labour win will include both some of those (F&BS definitely, A&SW and WE&S probably, Rushcliffe possibly) as well as Blyth Valley, Blackpool South and Workington. A winning coalition for Labour needs to include post-industrial heartland, metropolitan an university seats and socially mixed or average marginals Without starting a long chain of these - are Bassetlaw, Dudley/Wallsall North, Mansfield, etc out of the question now, given the size of the majorities? Equally if votes were 'lent' they could just as easily come back I guess. I'm sure however from '97-2010 the Tories must have thought Sherwood was out of reach, now look at it. I guess at some point a party has to concede that the demographic change is too much however, and it goes both ways of course, hard to believe Slough was Tory up to 97, as were the Lutons, and the area covered by Sefton Central. The Conservatives and Labour have both silently conceded it to one extent, but the Conservatives more so. It is clear that the Conservatives have given up on Brent North and Leeds North East for example. |
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right
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Post by right on Mar 22, 2021 22:19:31 GMT
Back in the 60s there were several pro-hanging Labour MPs - Frank Tomney and Jack Dunnett come to mind. It was never a party political issue - always a matter of conscience. A Bill to authorise such a Referendum would fail to get through the Commons - far too much Tory opposition now.Though the Home Secretary has previously expressed support? Very much past tense though. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Mar 22, 2021 22:29:51 GMT
If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people Not the way I'd have chosen to put it but this is also essentially right. I went to sixth form with a guy who came from what you'd call a working-class background and he always insisted that he was the archetype of a core Labour voter while supporting the death penalty, calling anyone on welfare a benefit fraud, having no interest in any form of wealth redistribution, being quite unsupportive of LGBT rights (and actively hostile to trans rights) and later on going down the rabbit holes of several right-wing and far-right conspiracy theories. Whatever their socio-economic background such a person a not part of Labour's core target group no matter how much they insist they are I've met Labour councillors who shared a fair smattering of those!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2021 22:32:35 GMT
Not the way I'd have chosen to put it but this is also essentially right. I went to sixth form with a guy who came from what you'd call a working-class background and he always insisted that he was the archetype of a core Labour voter while supporting the death penalty, calling anyone on welfare a benefit fraud, having no interest in any form of wealth redistribution, being quite unsupportive of LGBT rights (and actively hostile to trans rights) and later on going down the rabbit holes of several right-wing and far-right conspiracy theories. Whatever their socio-economic background such a person a not part of Labour's core target group no matter how much they insist they are I've met Labour councillors who shared a fair smattering of those! Probably not all of them though I wouldn't have thought |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Mar 22, 2021 22:36:49 GMT
We election geeks have been spoiled, having 4 elections on the same boundaries. 5 would be just greedy. that happened 1955-1970 didn't it(plus we've had 5 elections back to the 2005 on the same Scottish boundaries)? When we had Euro elections, Scotland collated its results at constituency level. This means that from 1997 to 2007 there were 10 comparable sets of election results on the same boundaries. 1997 General 1999 Scottish constituency 1999 Scottish list 1999 Euro 2001 General 2003 Scottish constituency 2003 Scottish list 2004 Euro 2007 Scottish constituency 2007 Scottish list |
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Post by matureleft on Mar 22, 2021 22:44:15 GMT
One year of what may be a short parliament has been spent. Possible, though I doubt it. Not least because the Tories will surely want the new Westminster boundaries in place first. When the FTPA out of the way we’ll be back to the (good?!) old days of a Prime Minister choosing the most advantageous date. One factor will be the boundary changes but much larger ones will be the shape and direction of the economy, the state of the opposition and major events with political implications (including any substantial return of the virus). After an initial boost following the lifting of lockdown the economy will be shaky. If we have a reasonably clear winter 2021/2 I’d not be amazed by a spring 2022 election, called before taxes start biting and the economy slows down again. But there are lots of ifs and buts before then. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Mar 22, 2021 22:49:34 GMT
Back in the 60s there were several pro-hanging Labour MPs - Frank Tomney and Jack Dunnett come to mind. It was never a party political issue - always a matter of conscience. A Bill to authorise such a Referendum would fail to get through the Commons - far too much Tory opposition now. They were a very small minority though. The vast majority of Labour MPs were abolitionist and I honestly can't see anyone who wanted to reintroduce it being selected as a Labour candidate now. In 1966 Duncan Sandys tried to introduce a ten-minute rule Bill to restore capital punishment, and 15 Labour MPs backed him. That was the last occasion on which the number of Labour MPs supporting capital punishment in a division exceeded three. |
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