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Post by manchesterman on Mar 22, 2021 14:18:08 GMT
I'm not convinced the "small town white working class" are that right-wing, actually. Certainly not in the North East. They're certainly socially conservative (though most social issues tend to bear little weight offline, despite all the noise they create online), but on economics they're centre-left. They don't want to pay more taxes themselves, but the residents of Spennymoor aren't crying out for a Singapore-on-Thames tax haven regime - in fact they want more funding for visible public services like health and the police. Which is why Labour are sensibly downplaying their candidate's Europhile leanings and emphasising the NHS above all else. There needs to be less focus on pronouns and more on poverty and tackling it. And no, it’s not bigoted or transphobic not to be willing to be engaged in this, but talking about ‘Mx’ on forms (there was an article about this last month) just causes unnecessary resentment from people who are literally struggling to put food on the table who must be wondering this is where the party’s priority appears to be? Absolutely go for social progress and equality, but do so ‘in the background’ and focus on what a government should be doing, and that is economic priorities that affect people, their pockets and their environment. As well as the NHS I’d like to see free school meals come to the fore again if they are serious about campaigning. With the ‘vaccine high’ it almost feels like everyone has forgotten about the FSM debacle. Given how ‘low’ the Tories went in their 2019 campaign (FactCheckUK, having D.Abbott on every leaflet even though she’s not a party leader, Corbyn the chicken), Labour has no option other than to “go low” as it were. Dominic Cummings and Dido Harding’s faces should be on every leaflet. Quoted to like again - send this to Labour Party HQ asap |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Mar 22, 2021 14:29:13 GMT
One year of what may be a short parliament has been spent. Possible, though I doubt it. Not least because the Tories will surely want the new Westminster boundaries in place first. We election geeks have been spoiled, having 4 elections on the same boundaries. 5 would be just greedy. |
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🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Mar 22, 2021 17:12:09 GMT
That's why I think Labour should back electoral reform and pacts to achieve it. I don't think a majority based on voters with diametrically opposed views can be sustained. I also think the idea that Labour are going to turn back a very clear trend is unlikely. It doesn't mean all those seats are gone forever but have a look at seats which were once marginal like Warwickshire North and Walsall North. I think they are unlikely to return to Labour. And the complacent view that the cities have nowhere else to go was exactly what used to be said about the red wall seats. For me - I wouldn't vote for any socially conservative party. I don't believe in big tent catch all parties and I won't be voting for either a left authoritarian or right wing liberal party. You're right that seats like Warwickshire North are probably gone, but there's a lot of traditional marginals which aren't really trending strongly either way which Labour will probably need to win back - and all of them are going to respond better to bread and butter issues than the woke social stuff. Carlisle, Keighley, Telford, Crawley, Ipswich, Gloucester, and a couple dozen more besides. These are ordinary places, who want ordinary governments who they feel are in touch. I don't even think Labour needs to be socially conservative to win them back - it just needs to be less about pronouns and more about daily issues. I suspect the next time Labour win, they'll do it by winning increasingly unlikely seats in metropolitan areas and on the periphery of large cities. Cities of London and Westminster, Filton and Bradley Stoke, Altrincham and Sale West, Wimbledon, Rushcliffe, Worthing East and Shoreham, and so on. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Mar 22, 2021 17:18:17 GMT
There needs to be less focus on pronouns and more on poverty and tackling it. And no, it’s not bigoted or transphobic not to be willing to be engaged in this, but talking about ‘Mx’ on forms (there was an article about this last month) just causes unnecessary resentment from people who are literally struggling to put food on the table who must be wondering this is where the party’s priority appears to be? Absolutely go for social progress and equality, but do so ‘in the background’ and focus on what a government should be doing, and that is economic priorities that affect people, their pockets and their environment. As well as the NHS I’d like to see free school meals come to the fore again if they are serious about campaigning. With the ‘vaccine high’ it almost feels like everyone has forgotten about the FSM debacle. Given how ‘low’ the Tories went in their 2019 campaign (FactCheckUK, having D.Abbott on every leaflet even though she’s not a party leader, Corbyn the chicken), Labour has no option other than to “go low” as it were. Dominic Cummings and Dido Harding’s faces should be on every leaflet. I think there should be room for a socially conservative workerist social democratic party. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, but there's clearly a constituency for it, however, the idea that one amorphous party can mop up all the non Tory vote is unlikely. As for the idea that Labour never talk about anything but trans issues, it's been notable how little they have had to say on the matter! I doubt it has any influence. I think BLM etc. does and I think the reaction to Starmer's describing it as a moment should tell you that Labour aren't going to adopt Ukip-lite policies in that area. Their current voter base won't allow it. The problem is that when people have an idea of what they don't like about Labour, anything that they say or do that reinforces that view will damage them. Sir Keir kneeling in support of woke Oxbridge reject rioters with twonkish names in Bristol – he didn't even have to open his mouth to look soft on crime, soft on the causes of crime (to coin a phrase). |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Mar 22, 2021 17:33:33 GMT
It's more about voter distribution. Effectively we have polarised towards living in the same places as those who broadly agree with us. Labour's vote is very concentrated in the cities. Small town white working class voters are pretty right wing, small c-conservative, and now tribal affiliation has gone there isn't an obvious reason why they should vote Labour. I think there has certainly been a shift rightwards on socio-economic issues - the reluctance to pay more tax being the obvious example. The Thatcher settlement was never really challenged. Of course Labour should try and change hearts and minds but I just can't see the point in being another version of the Tories. I'm not convinced the "small town white working class" are that right-wing, actually. Certainly not in the North East. They're certainly socially conservative (though most social issues tend to bear little weight offline, despite all the noise they create online), but on economics they're centre-left. They don't want to pay more taxes themselves, but the residents of Spennymoor aren't crying out for a Singapore-on-Thames tax haven regime - in fact they want more funding for visible public services like health and the police. Which is why Labour are sensibly downplaying their candidate's Europhile leanings and emphasising the NHS above all else. But there is common ground to be had on the health service from the right as well – primary care services do some pretty dinosaurish things (like their approach to data collection/entry that gave that guy from Liverpool a BMI of 28,000 – I mean, this is 2021, when we can do our own data entry on the flipping Census). It would be popular to make primary care something that actually worked and could be booked online in a location of your choice, rather than a battle against receptionists with the customer service skills of a Soviet department store. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 18:06:12 GMT
I think there should be room for a socially conservative workerist social democratic party. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, but there's clearly a constituency for it, however, the idea that one amorphous party can mop up all the non Tory vote is unlikely. As for the idea that Labour never talk about anything but trans issues, it's been notable how little they have had to say on the matter! I doubt it has any influence. I think BLM etc. does and I think the reaction to Starmer's describing it as a moment should tell you that Labour aren't going to adopt Ukip-lite policies in that area. Their current voter base won't allow it. The problem is that when people have an idea of what they don't like about Labour, anything that they say or do that reinforces that view will damage them. Sir Keir kneeling in support of woke Oxbridge reject rioters with twonkish names in Bristol – he didn't even have to open his mouth to look soft on crime, soft on the causes of crime (to coin a phrase). If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people |
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Post by islington on Mar 22, 2021 18:22:55 GMT
The problem is that when people have an idea of what they don't like about Labour, anything that they say or do that reinforces that view will damage them. Sir Keir kneeling in support of woke Oxbridge reject rioters with twonkish names in Bristol – he didn't even have to open his mouth to look soft on crime, soft on the causes of crime (to coin a phrase). If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people Agreed, but there's no need to resort to such policies (which I agree would lose more votes than they gained, to say nothing of their inherent objectionableness).
I'd suggest, instead, having the national flag clearly visible at your political events, broadcasts, &c; ensuring that everyone appearing for your party on TV in early November is wearing a poppy; expressing your admiration and support for the monarchy; that sort of thing. These things are purely symbolic: they cost nothing and commit you to nothing in terms of practical politics, but they give reassurance to a lot of people whose votes you need.
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Mar 22, 2021 18:35:24 GMT
The problem is that when people have an idea of what they don't like about Labour, anything that they say or do that reinforces that view will damage them. Sir Keir kneeling in support of woke Oxbridge reject rioters with twonkish names in Bristol – he didn't even have to open his mouth to look soft on crime, soft on the causes of crime (to coin a phrase). If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people I don't think traditional Labour people are anti-immigrant per se. There's a serious contention against *mass* immigration – i.e. increasing the supply of labour letting wicked capitalists drive wages down (to be honest, I'm not sure how forceful this argument is in a global economy, but it's a position with a sort of integrity) – and there's a natural disapproval of people on the make and on the take breaking the law to their own advantage. As for hanging, that's something where I would be glad to see it decided by referendum rather than by Parliament – inevitably with conscience issues, party politics rather breaks down. |
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Post by maxque on Mar 22, 2021 18:47:08 GMT
If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people Agreed, but there's no need to resort to such policies (which I agree would lose more votes than they gained, to say nothing of their inherent objectionableness).
I'd suggest, instead, having the national flag clearly visible at your political events, broadcasts, &c; ensuring that everyone appearing for your party on TV in early November is wearing a poppy; expressing your admiration and support for the monarchy; that sort of thing. These things are purely symbolic: they cost nothing and commit you to nothing in terms of practical politics, but they give reassurance to a lot of people whose votes you need.
And a big slap in the face of republicans. I also don't think condoning the jingolistic poppy cult is a good idea. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Mar 22, 2021 18:51:12 GMT
Agreed, but there's no need to resort to such policies (which I agree would lose more votes than they gained, to say nothing of their inherent objectionableness). I'd suggest, instead, having the national flag clearly visible at your political events, broadcasts, &c; ensuring that everyone appearing for your party on TV in early November is wearing a poppy; expressing your admiration and support for the monarchy; that sort of thing. These things are purely symbolic: they cost nothing and commit you to nothing in terms of practical politics, but they give reassurance to a lot of people whose votes you need.
And a big slap in the face of republicans. I also don't think condoning the jingolistic poppy cult is a good idea. Fewer than 30% of people are republicans, and even fewer of us actually think it's worth arguing about. And the number of people who are hostile to wearing a poppy is astronomically tiny. Your personal preferences aren't particularly relevant to Labour's actual electoral landscape. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 19:00:54 GMT
If they want to vote for an anti-immigrant, socially conservative party which favours hanging and flogging, then it shouldn't be Labour Parties cannot be all things to all people I don't think traditional Labour people are anti-immigrant per se. There's a serious contention against *mass* immigration – i.e. increasing the supply of labour letting wicked capitalists drive wages down (to be honest, I'm not sure how forceful this argument is in a global economy, but it's a position with a sort of integrity) – and there's a natural disapproval of people on the make and on the take breaking the law to their own advantage. As for hanging, that's something where I would be glad to see it decided by referendum rather than by Parliament – inevitably with conscience issues, party politics rather breaks down. We don't have mass immigration, haven't had for years. But no Labour MP would vote for capital punishment. I don't believe in referendums but will accept them for constitutional reasons. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 19:02:01 GMT
And a big slap in the face of republicans. I also don't think condoning the jingolistic poppy cult is a good idea. Fewer than 30% of people are republicans, and even fewer of us actually think it's worth arguing about. And the number of people who are hostile to wearing a poppy is astronomically tiny. Your personal preferences aren't particularly relevant to Labour's actual electoral landscape. I'm not hostile in the sense that I object to others wearing them but I'd never wear a poppy myself. Also a republican. And I would imagine the vast majority of republicans vote Labour and should not be forced to state support for an institution they disagree with. The suggestios above are exactly what makes me not want to vote Labour, which is why I want them to accept the need for electoral reform and a split. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Mar 22, 2021 19:18:41 GMT
I don't think traditional Labour people are anti-immigrant per se. There's a serious contention against *mass* immigration – i.e. increasing the supply of labour letting wicked capitalists drive wages down (to be honest, I'm not sure how forceful this argument is in a global economy, but it's a position with a sort of integrity) – and there's a natural disapproval of people on the make and on the take breaking the law to their own advantage. As for hanging, that's something where I would be glad to see it decided by referendum rather than by Parliament – inevitably with conscience issues, party politics rather breaks down. We don't have mass immigration, haven't had for years. But no Labour MP would vote for capital punishment. I don't believe in referendums but will accept them for constitutional reasons. Unfortunately, we have had six-figure imbalances in the immigration/emigration figures in every year since 1998. In 1993, the figure was pretty much an equilibrium. The imbalance is widely perceived as mass immigration, even if you disagree with that perception. And if that's true, that just shows how out-of-touch the current crop of Labour MPs is really. I'd have guessed that about 20-35% of them would vote for it, if they were representative of their voters. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 19:25:48 GMT
We don't have mass immigration, haven't had for years. But no Labour MP would vote for capital punishment. I don't believe in referendums but will accept them for constitutional reasons. Unfortunately, we have had six-figure imbalances in the immigration/emigration figures in every year since 1998. In 1993, the figure was pretty much an equilibrium. The imbalance is widely perceived as mass immigration, even if you disagree with that perception. And if that's true, that just shows how out-of-touch the current crop of Labour MPs is really. I'd have guessed that about 20-35% of them would vote for it, if they were representative of their voters. They should reflect socialist principle and I don't think supporting capital punishment reflects what that should be about. I think it's more honest to accept some votes will be lost. |
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Mar 22, 2021 19:28:27 GMT
Possible, though I doubt it. Not least because the Tories will surely want the new Westminster boundaries in place first. We election geeks have been spoiled, having 4 elections on the same boundaries. 5 would be just greedy. that happened 1955-1970 didn't it(plus we've had 5 elections back to the 2005 on the same Scottish boundaries)? |
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Mar 22, 2021 19:29:39 GMT
Unfortunately, we have had six-figure imbalances in the immigration/emigration figures in every year since 1998. In 1993, the figure was pretty much an equilibrium. The imbalance is widely perceived as mass immigration, even if you disagree with that perception. And if that's true, that just shows how out-of-touch the current crop of Labour MPs is really. I'd have guessed that about 20-35% of them would vote for it, if they were representative of their voters. They should reflect socialist principle and I don't think supporting capital punishment reflects what that should be about. I think it's more honest to accept some votes will be lost. Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 22, 2021 19:36:37 GMT
They should reflect socialist principle and I don't think supporting capital punishment reflects what that should be about. I think it's more honest to accept some votes will be lost. Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? Presumably he supported it in the USSR, Cuba etc.. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 22, 2021 19:46:27 GMT
Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? Presumably he supported it in the USSR, Cuba etc.. It was Eric Heffer who remarked that if the USSR was Socialism then you can stuff it. I prefer Eric to Bob. |
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Post by manchesterman on Mar 22, 2021 19:54:30 GMT
Did Bob Crow(RIP) not support the death penalty, I seem to remember? Presumably he supported it in the USSR, Cuba etc.. Bloody hell, I read that as Jim Crow at first..which puts a whole different twist on it!! |
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Mar 22, 2021 19:55:00 GMT
Presumably he supported it in the USSR, Cuba etc.. It was Eric Heffer who remarked that if the USSR was Socialism then you can stuff it. I prefer Eric to Bob. Both sound on the EEC/EU though  |
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