|
|
Post by bjornhattan on Apr 11, 2021 12:09:32 GMT
EAL How far do you think it would be from top to bottom of your proposed Skye, Kintyre and West Highlands? I have done it decades ago and it took more than a day! And surely it exceeds the area strictures? With whole wards, it certainly does. My back of the envelope maths suggests that with a few ward splits (Wester Ross into Caithness & Sutherland; bits of Aird & Loch Ness into either Caithness or Inverness) it should be possible to just about ensure all three Highland constituencies are below the maximum allowable size, but it would be a tight squeeze. And yes, it's a big, expansive seat, but that's because not many people live in the Highlands. As you've previously pointed out, getting from one bit of the constituency to another isn't something most electors care about because they almost never have cause to do it. When I initially saw that proposed constituency, I recoiled in horror, but the more I think about it, the more I'm willing to tolerate it. Ullapool, Mallaig, Oban, Uig, along with numerous other villages along that coast all have similar interests in that they are all ports with connections to various islands. It is absolutely enormous, but as you point out any seat in this part of the world is going to be. And given that the issues faced by this area are a world away from the rapidly growing urban centre of Inverness or commuter belt areas like Helensburgh, it might not be that much worse than the current set up. |
|
|
|
Post by minionofmidas on Apr 11, 2021 13:41:42 GMT
 Dumbarton, Helensburgh & Bute (71291) Surely when splitting Argyll & Bute Council Area you don't want to be actually splitting actually Argyll, recognizable as this border is. a)can anybody devise a proposal that does this - move all of Helensburgh into a Dunbartonshire constituency but keep Dunoon and Cowal where they belong? I am interested in the wider ramifications. Placement of Bute optional. b)Where does Lomond North ward stand in relation to the pre75 and the 75 to 95 borders anyways? (On both sides?) Are these identical? (Yes?) Where does the population live? (Mostly towards Helensburgh?) I've actually been in this ward and I'm not sure of my answers! |
|
islington
Non-Aligned
Posts: 4,435 
Member is Online
|
Post by islington on Apr 11, 2021 14:20:17 GMT
Dumbarton, Helensburgh & Bute (71291) Surely when splitting Argyll & Bute Council Area you don't want to be actually splitting actually Argyll, recognizable as this border is. a)can anybody devise a proposal that does this - move all of Helensburgh into a Dunbartonshire constituency but keep Dunoon and Cowal where they belong? I am interested in the wider ramifications. Placement of Bute optional. b)Where does Lomond North ward stand in relation to the pre75 and the 75 to 95 borders anyways? (On both sides?) Are these identical? (Yes?) Where does the population live? (Mostly towards Helensburgh?) I've actually been in this ward and I'm not sure of my answers! To answer the second question first, until 1975 the boundary between Dunbartonshire and Stirlingshire ran through Loch Lomond, except that the very northern end was entirely in Duns. So Duns included most of Lomond N apart from the western bit between Loch Long and the splendidly-named Rest and Be Thankful.
If you put both Helensburgh wards in with W Duns it's overloaded and something has to pop out at the other end - presumably Kilpatrick. What you then do with this is anyone's guess. Also, by moving Helensburgh proper (as opposed to just a few outlying estates) into Dumbarton, you are likely to be short of numbers in the Argyll seat and it's far from clear where you'll make them up.
I'm afraid I really am still struggling to see what's so very wrong about shaving off a few peripheries of Helensburgh, especially when (some) other posters seem to have no problem with slicing right down the middle of other towns such as Bearsden, Paisley, &c.
(Pity poor Paisley. What has it does to deserve the treatment meted out to it? Virtually every plan posted here, to say nothing of the current map, slices the unfortunate town in half. So far as I can remember, the town is kept whole in a single seat in only one plan posted here - modesty forbids me to say whose.)
|
|
|
|
Post by afleitch on Apr 11, 2021 14:45:44 GMT
If Glasgow is to be crossed (which I don't think it will) only in so much as to not have to cross the Clyde for 'the Renfrewshires' seats consider a crossing at Linn Ward.
|
|
|
|
Post by minionofmidas on Apr 11, 2021 15:07:01 GMT
I'm afraid I really am still struggling to see what's so very wrong about shaving off a few peripheries of Helensburgh, While permissible and timehonored, surely you agree that it's suboptimal - in this case, not only are parts of a fairly small town in another constituency, they are in an orphan ward in a constituency based on another council. But it's more that when the notion of splitting A&B was first floated, the notion of "not so bad if it just means restoring the Dumbarton-Helensburgh link" seemed a natural one. Bearsden is a suburb, not a town. (Obviously still somwthing to preferrably avoid.) Well, it's a rather larger town and it has been split for a longtime and used to completely dominate both seats it was in. Admittedly with growing seats in Scotland the latter justification has been a little iffy since 2005. And what it has done to deserve this? Ever heard the delightful phrase "getting off at Paisley"? To say nothing of the time my home city was fraudulently described as "quite like Paisley" within my hearing - long story but an affront that remains unavenged - and of lending its name to some reverend. Split it in seven I say. |
|
J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,847
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Apr 11, 2021 16:50:07 GMT
b)Where does Lomond North ward stand in relation to the pre75 and the 75 to 95 borders anyways? (On both sides?) Are these identical? (Yes?) Where does the population live? (Mostly towards Helensburgh?) I've actually been in this ward and I'm not sure of my answers! To answer the second question first, until 1975 the boundary between Dunbartonshire and Stirlingshire ran through Loch Lomond, except that the very northern end was entirely in Duns. So Duns included most of Lomond N apart from the western bit between Loch Long and the splendidly-named Rest and Be Thankful.
The islands in Loch Lomond seemed to be rather arbitarily split between Stirlingshire and Dumbartonshire, splitting island groups rather than going between the island groups. |
|
|
|
Post by minionofmidas on Apr 11, 2021 16:57:12 GMT
To answer the second question first, until 1975 the boundary between Dunbartonshire and Stirlingshire ran through Loch Lomond, except that the very northern end was entirely in Duns. So Duns included most of Lomond N apart from the western bit between Loch Long and the splendidly-named Rest and Be Thankful.
The islands in Loch Lomond seemed to be rather arbitarily split between Stirlingshire and Dumbartonshire, splitting island groups rather than going between the island groups. More interested in Dunbartonshire's historic northern extension's western boundary and the location of populated parts of the ward! |
|
J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,847
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Apr 11, 2021 17:21:04 GMT
The islands in Loch Lomond seemed to be rather arbitarily split between Stirlingshire and Dumbartonshire, splitting island groups rather than going between the island groups. More interested in Dunbartonshire's historic northern extension's western boundary and the location of populated parts of the ward! |
|
|
|
Post by aidanthomson on Apr 11, 2021 17:45:40 GMT
Looking at the various plans submitted here, I've been mulling over the question of grouping in Scotland. I know not everyone sees value in this approach, which is fine because we all have our own way of working, but personally I find it a very useful technique for ensuring that we get the right number of seats and don't end up overloaded or underloaded with electors in any particular area. As a preliminary observation, I think the acreage rule means it's effective unavoidable that A&B is linked with Highland; putting Ft William in with Argyll absorbs 2591 sq km that would otherwise have to be accommodated in a Highland seat, and a further 2064 if Caol is shifted as well. And even if both wards are included, the resulting Argyll-based seat is still below 12000 sq km and does not engage the acreage rule. I'd also suggest that WDuns be added to this mix, simply because its boundary with A&B is far more crossable (Helensburgh haircut notwithstanding) that its borders with Stirling, EDuns or Glasgow, or its riverine border with Renfs. If there is any way that the West Dunbartonshire/A&B link could be managed without a 'Helensburgh haircut' then I'd certainly take it. What's needed are the electorate figures for individual polling districts for Helensburgh and Lomond South. If the Cardross and Arden polling districts come to 1929 or more, then it's definitely doable. I had a look at census figures for the area, and the Cardross/Lomond area comes to slightly more than a third of the population of the area, which is roughly the number required. Unfortunately, the census districts for the area don't quite align with the ward boundaries, so it may not be enough. However, if it isn't, then the haircut could still be avoided if there's a further cut made in Lomond North along the west side of Loch Lomond, taking in Luss, which would certainly get Dunbartonshire West over the line. (I realise that a solution without unnecessary ward splits is usually preferable, but I'd say that splitting H&LS to avoid splitting Helensburgh counts as a necessary one.) You need at least two council boundary crossings: one between Dundee and Angus and one between P&K and Angus. (You'd also need two with a Dundee/Angus/Aberdeenshire link, of course.) And there's no obvious way of doing it with just two crossings without at least one ward split. Have you considered this arrangement? Two council boundary crossings, two split wards. 1) Dundee West: Strathmartine, Lochee, West End, Coldside, Maryfield; western parts of East End (c.75,004) 2) Dundee East and Arbroath: North East, The Ferry, Carnoustie, Arbroath x 2; eastern parts of East End, Monifieth and easternmost PD of Sidlaw (c.76,544) 3) Angus and East Perthshire: Kirriemuir, Forfar, Montrose, Carse of Gowrie, Strathtay, Blairgowrie; most of Sidlaw (c.74,980)  It's certainly not perfect, but no solution in this area will be. And there is a precedent for the Angus/P&K cross in Tayside North (1983–2005). With the caveat that for many years the Clacks/Falkirk link is exactly what the Commission did, and no-one seemed that bothered by it. I imagine that that was probably because the fact that both areas had mining in common and that therefore there was a community of interest, which there isn't so much between Clackmannan and south Perthshire. |
|
|
|
Post by minionofmidas on Apr 11, 2021 18:08:32 GMT
with that and the list of polling stations (which are presumably of uneven size, the rural ones being smaller, but still) 2 at Rhu just northwest of Helensburgh One some distance beyond Rhu at Garelochhead 3 across from Rhu on the Rosneath peninsula 4 rural ones in the ne towards Loch Lomond, 3 actually situated at Arrochar (the aforementioned Luss further down the Loch being the fourth). No suitable location in Tarbet or Ardlui? What do they have a polling station of their own (together) for if it's going to be located elsewhere? |
|
|
|
Post by aidanthomson on Apr 11, 2021 19:30:04 GMT
So - Livingston, Falkirk town, Stirling all split, the last of them three ways. This is a real shame because up to this point, there's been so much to admire in the schemes put forward by No Offence Alan - especially the combination of the two Lanarkshires for 7 seats, and the consequent elimination of DCT. No matter. I see you've left yourself with the rest of Scotland = 18.08, which should be comfortably feasible for 18, so crack on.
Another stab at a 5-seat "Central Scotland". I have re-united Falkirk and (most of) Livingston. You could take about 6,000 electors from the Larbert/Stenhousemuir area into Falkirk to make the numbers work.  Sorry, I like my Stirlingshire North/South split using the Forth as a natural boundary. I'd say that something like this is the best arrangement for Clacks/Stirling/Falkirk if you are ruling out Clacks/Falkirk on the grounds of road links. If you're looking to cut Stirlingshire South, I'd move the Bonnybridge half of Larbert/Bonnybridge rather than split the Larbert/Stenhousemuir built-up area. |
|
|
|
Post by aidanthomson on Apr 11, 2021 19:58:25 GMT
EAL How far do you think it would be from top to bottom of your proposed Skye, Kintyre and West Highlands? I have done it decades ago and it took more than a day! And surely it exceeds the area strictures? The combined area of the Caithness seat and the Skye/Kintyre seat as drawn here is 28,705km2. So this combination isn't a runner. |
|
|
|
Post by aidanthomson on Apr 11, 2021 20:01:54 GMT
Latest tinkering with East Dunbartonshire/north Glasgow:  Milngavie/Bearsden and Kirkintilloch are now in separate seats, but neither is split. |
|
|
|
Post by No Offence Alan on Apr 11, 2021 20:02:21 GMT
EAL How far do you think it would be from top to bottom of your proposed Skye, Kintyre and West Highlands? I have done it decades ago and it took more than a day! And surely it exceeds the area strictures? Not quite in that league, but I have constructed a seat including Badenoch and Strathspey ward, and Ellon and District on the Aberdeenshire coast. |
|
piperdave
SNP
Dalkeith; Midlothian/North & Musselburgh
Posts: 911
|
Post by piperdave on Apr 11, 2021 22:03:26 GMT
On the Tayside conundrum, you can almost resurrect the old North Tayside, Perth and Angus East constituencies. Perth would need to take Scone and Almondbank to get over 70k, Montrose might have to be added to North Tayside, and then it's how you draw the boundary in Dundee.
|
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Apr 12, 2021 8:42:39 GMT
EAL How far do you think it would be from top to bottom of your proposed Skye, Kintyre and West Highlands? I have done it decades ago and it took more than a day! And surely it exceeds the area strictures? The combined area of the Caithness seat and the Skye/Kintyre seat as drawn here is 28,705km2. So this combination isn't a runner. I was thinking that the Inverness seat could also help out by grabbing some of the less populated bits of Aird & Loch Ness, although in practice I think it'd be difficult to make it work unless you used the 12k rule for one of the seats. |
|
Eastwood
Non-Aligned
Politically restricted post
Posts: 2,122
|
Post by Eastwood on Apr 12, 2021 10:06:21 GMT
For me the best solution to Argyll & Bute is to keep it in one constituency. Where a Local Authority is below a seat quota unless we have a really good reason I'd rather it had one MP.
And looking at the Polling District data there looks to be an easy solution.
Argyll & Bute is 67565, 2159 below quota.
The Polling Districts of Glencoe, Ballachulish, Kentallen, Kinlochleven and North Ballachulish had a combined electorate of 2319 in 2019. So you can add them to Argyll & Bute without any need to split the Fort William and Caol areas. All except North Ballachulish were traditionally in Argyll pre 1975 anyway. They also form a whole Secondary School catchment area at Kinlochleven High so the 5 PDs form a natural community.
My preferred split of Wester Ross, Strathpeffer and Lochalsh follows school catchment boundaries.
The 9 northern wards of Highland gives us an electorate of 65239, 4485 short of quota.
Strathconon, Marybank, Contin, Garve and Strathpeffer are all in Dingwall Academy catchment so they're my first priority to assign to the Caithness, Sutherland and Ross seat. They have a combined 2019 electorate of 2547.
Next we have the catchment of Ullapool High. Ullapool, Coigach and Badcaul PDs have a combined 2019 electorate of 2000.
That should just get the CSR seat up to quota but it leaves Inverness, Skye and Lochaber slightly over quota at circa 78500.
So we add in Gairloch High catchment of Aultbea, Poolewe, Gairloch, Opinan, Kinlochewe, Achnasheen, Torridon and Shieldaig PDs with a combined 2019 electorate of 2282.
Caithness, Sutherland & Ross, 72068, circa 12,500 sq km
Inverness, Skye & Lochaber, 76178, circa 11,000 sq km
Argyll, Bute & Glencoe, 69884, circa 8,000 sq km
Two wards are split but no Secondary School catchments are split so its all following natural community boundaries.
|
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Apr 12, 2021 10:17:57 GMT
For me the best solution to Argyll & Bute is to keep it in one constituency. Where a Local Authority is below a seat quota unless we have a really good reason I'd rather it had one MP. That's all well and good, but if you're keeping Argyll & Bute whole then you are of necessity splitting Moray, which could otherwise stand alone. So you are forced to confront the question of which of the two authorities you want to prioritise. |
|
|
|
Post by No Offence Alan on Apr 12, 2021 10:29:31 GMT
For me the best solution to Argyll & Bute is to keep it in one constituency. Where a Local Authority is below a seat quota unless we have a really good reason I'd rather it had one MP. That's all well and good, but if you're keeping Argyll & Bute whole then you are of necessity splitting Moray, which could otherwise stand alone. So you are forced to confront the question of which of the two authorities you want to prioritise. And it also depends what you have done with West Dunbartonshire - it needs a bit of A&B to bring it up to size unless you have crossed into Glasgow or East Dunbartonshire. |
|
Eastwood
Non-Aligned
Politically restricted post
Posts: 2,122
|
Post by Eastwood on Apr 12, 2021 10:31:03 GMT
For me the best solution to Argyll & Bute is to keep it in one constituency. Where a Local Authority is below a seat quota unless we have a really good reason I'd rather it had one MP. That's all well and good, but if you're keeping Argyll & Bute whole then you are of necessity splitting Moray, which could otherwise stand alone. So you are forced to confront the question of which of the two authorities you want to prioritise. Well that is the likely result but it's not strictly necessary! There's always the option of leaving Moray intact and creating a Drumochter pitchfork bait. Ardersier, Nairn, Badenoch, Strathspey and Perthshire North is in quota at 73952 and is only 6829 sq km, has no ward splits and only contains two local authorities... I agree though that a split Moray is a more likely scenario. |
|
