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Post by finsobruce on Jan 6, 2021 17:13:56 GMT
You do not need to include Hackney in a group with Enfield and Haringey in this context. For the Enfield-Haringey pairing: Remove the Stroud Green ward from Hornsey & Wood Green. Add the Stroud Green ward to Tottenham and remove the old Northumberland Park and White Hart Lane wards from it. Add Northumberland Park and White Hart Lane wards to Edmonton, and remove the area around Bush Hill Park from it. Add area around Bush Hill Park and Southbury to Enfield Southgate. Add Cockfosters and Oakwood wards to Enfield North and remove Southbury from it. Both the old Park and White Hart Lane wards formed part of the old Wood Green constituency. When London boroughs merged back in '64, Tottenham would have preferred to go in with Edmonton. |
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Post by minionofmidas on Jan 6, 2021 17:35:13 GMT
There are some mathematically possible smaller groupings which haven't been suggested yet: Hammersmith W & Chiswick, Fulham & Hammersmith E? I have trouble visualizing that. A discontiguous Fulham & Chiswick (or Fulham & Shepherd's Bush) seat? |
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Post by islington on Jan 6, 2021 17:51:26 GMT
Welcome back, Minion.
(I'm getting all emotional now.)
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Post by minionofmidas on Jan 6, 2021 18:08:56 GMT
Welcome back, Minion. (I'm getting all emotional now.) i wasn't gone, but i only lurk a few of the boards here and had nothing much to say. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Jan 6, 2021 19:48:50 GMT
You do not need to include Hackney in a group with Enfield and Haringey in this context. For the Enfield-Haringey pairing: Remove the Stroud Green ward from Hornsey & Wood Green. Add the Stroud Green ward to Tottenham and remove the old Northumberland Park and White Hart Lane wards from it. Add Northumberland Park and White Hart Lane wards to Edmonton, and remove the area around Bush Hill Park from it. Add area around Bush Hill Park and Southbury to Enfield Southgate. Add Cockfosters and Oakwood wards to Enfield North and remove Southbury from it. Both the old Park and White Hart Lane wards formed part of the old Wood Green constituency. When London boroughs merged back in '64, Tottenham would have preferred to go in with Edmonton. That would have made things interesting! |
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Post by evergreenadam on Jan 6, 2021 19:55:30 GMT
There are some mathematically possible smaller groupings which haven't been suggested yet: Hammersmith W & Chiswick, Fulham & Hammersmith E? I have trouble visualizing that. A discontiguous Fulham & Chiswick (or Fulham & Shepherd's Bush) seat? It probably works better as Chiswick and Shepherds Bush with Goldhawk Road and the 94 bus route as the main spine. However at the last review there was a lot of local support for the three Chiswick wards in Hounslow to be included in the proposed Isleworth, Brentford and Chiswick constituency together with the Southfield ward in Ealing which is largely within the same W4 postcode area and most of which regards itself as being part of Chiswick. I expect that uniting Chiswick in one seat may again trump other considerations, especially with the volume of representations likely to be received from Chiswick residents. |
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Post by greenhert on Jan 6, 2021 21:35:31 GMT
You do not need to include Hackney in a group with Enfield and Haringey in this context. For the Enfield-Haringey pairing: Remove the Stroud Green ward from Hornsey & Wood Green. Add the Stroud Green ward to Tottenham and remove the old Northumberland Park and White Hart Lane wards from it. Add Northumberland Park and White Hart Lane wards to Edmonton, and remove the area around Bush Hill Park from it. Add area around Bush Hill Park and Southbury to Enfield Southgate. Add Cockfosters and Oakwood wards to Enfield North and remove Southbury from it. Both the old Park and White Hart Lane wards formed part of the old Wood Green constituency. When London boroughs merged back in '64, Tottenham would have preferred to go in with Edmonton. This would have left the boroughs of Hornsey and Wood Green in a difficult position. Would both have joined Enfield, or would just Wood Green have joined Enfield with Hornsey to join up with Finchley? |
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Post by finsobruce on Jan 6, 2021 21:38:00 GMT
Both the old Park and White Hart Lane wards formed part of the old Wood Green constituency. When London boroughs merged back in '64, Tottenham would have preferred to go in with Edmonton. This would have left the boroughs of Hornsey and Wood Green in a difficult position. Would both have joined Enfield, or would just Wood Green have joined Enfield with Hornsey to join up with Finchley? I think the latter, but it wouldn't have been up to them, so it's a moot point. As we all know there was a reasonably concerted attempt, where possible, to join low rated boroughs with higher rated boroughs so that none were too poor. |
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Post by andrewteale on Jan 6, 2021 21:44:50 GMT
For what it's worth and I've not checked this, Lewis Baston has tweeted that you can get two legal seats out of Camden on the current boundaries. But maybe not on the prospective ones.
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Post by johnloony on Jan 7, 2021 18:24:19 GMT
Extend Croydon Central to include the whole of SAV and SVF
Keep Park Hill in Croydon Central but take out Fairfield and Woodside
Rename Croydon Central as Croydon East
Do some unspecified gurgly-squiggly things with Croydon North, in order to make 1-and-a-bit constituencies instead of just 1.
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Post by evergreenadam on Jan 7, 2021 23:06:37 GMT
Haringey doesn't seem like a particularly sensible construction. Parts of Highgate and Tottenham in the same borough. You could the same about Hounslow with Bedfont and Chiswick in the same Borough. |
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peter
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Post by peter on Jan 9, 2021 10:15:42 GMT
Going back to the 1963 reorganisation, there was an early proposal to divide Enfield and join the eastern part of the borough (Ponders End) with Edmonton and Tottenham. The boroughs of Wood Green, Hornsey would have joined Southgate and the much of the area of Enfield that is now part of the current Southgate constituency. It should be remembered that the Enfield West constituency consisted of two wards of Enfield and the Potters Bar UDC. When finalising the boroughs one point of importance was not rateable value, but including a major shopping centre or what we now call a hub in each borough. Of the 32 boroughs this worked for 31 of them. There was one exception.
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Jan 9, 2021 13:26:42 GMT
Going back to the 1963 reorganisation, there was an early proposal to divide Enfield and join the eastern part of the borough (Ponders End) with Edmonton and Tottenham. The boroughs of Wood Green, Hornsey would have joined Southgate and the much of the area of Enfield that is now part of the current Southgate constituency. It should be remembered that the Enfield West constituency consisted of two wards of Enfield and the Potters Bar UDC. When finalising the boroughs one point of importance was not rateable value, but including a major shopping centre or what we now call a hub in each borough. Of the 32 boroughs this worked for 31 of them. There was one exception. So that would have meant dividing the municipal borough of Enfield along something like the then Enfield East/Enfield West constituency boundary? Because while I can't find anything showing exactly where that boundary ran, it looks as if its course through Enfield would have been somewhat geographically awkward (though quite likely no more so than some current London borough boundaries). And, as a matter of interest, did any of the actual London borough boundaries end up cutting through existing local authorities? Or was this kind of suggestion something that only turned up in early proposals? Turning back towards the original point, given the general principles on which the 1963 reorganisation seems to have been working, the Haringey combination feels almost inevitable. In terms of population, Haringey seems to have been slightly on the small side for an outer London (i.e. not ex-LCC) borough, so a pairing of just Tottenham and Wood Green (or, for that matter, Tottenham and Edmonton) would have been regarded as too small. And beyond this, plausible combinations including Tottenham seem rather limited. They would not have wanted to cross the inner/outer London divide - which rules out any combination with Hackney. They would not have wanted to cross the River Lea - which rules out combining with Walthamstow. So otherwise, one is looking at combinations with Edmonton and something else - and one then has to look at knock-on effects. If one isn't dividing existing local authorities, then making the something else Enfield would (by the time one had considered the western half of Enfield) make a more mismatched combination than one including Hornsey; making the something else Southgate would leave no plausible combinations for Enfield; and making the something else Wood Green would probably work in terms of size and compactness, but would still be rather awkwardly shaped and leave the questions of how to deal with Enfield and Southgate (which would more or less still have to go together, but would still be rather small by themselves) and with Hornsey (which didn't have a common boundary with either). And trying to answer either of these questions plunges one into a welter of further questions about combinations with local authorities that went into Barnet - all of which would seem to have their own problems. But however one goes through these, Edmonton, Enfield and Southgate made a historically and geographically natural combination which then effectively enforced the Hornsey/Wood Green/Tottenham combination. And even if one brings the local authorities that went to make up Barnet (Barnet, East Barnet, Finchley, Friern Barnet and Hendon) into the mix, any alternative always seems to end up with at least one borough less sensible than the actual Haringey combination and no borough quite as sensible as the actual Enfield combination. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Jan 9, 2021 13:41:38 GMT
And, as a matter of interest, did any of the actual London borough boundaries end up cutting through existing local authorities? Yes: - Wandsworth was split, with Clapham and Streatham merging with Lambeth to form the new Lambeth and the rest merging with Battersea to form the new Wandsworth
- Chislehurst and Sidcup was split in half between Bexley and Bromley
- Newham was mainly a merger of West Ham and East Ham, but also took North Woolwich from Woolwich and an unpopulated area of Barking covering some marshland and industry (basically the boundary was moved from where Barking Creek historically was to where it is now)
- Redbridge took the northernmost tip of Dagenham and a small area from Chigwell (most of which remained in Essex) so that the Hainault Estate was no longer trisected
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Post by evergreenadam on Jan 9, 2021 21:47:33 GMT
And, as a matter of interest, did any of the actual London borough boundaries end up cutting through existing local authorities? Yes: - Wandsworth was split, with Clapham and Streatham merging with Lambeth to form the new Lambeth and the rest merging with Battersea to form the new Wandsworth
- Chislehurst and Sidcup was split in half between Bexley and Bromley
- Newham was mainly a merger of West Ham and East Ham, but also took North Woolwich from Woolwich and an unpopulated area of Barking covering some marshland and industry (basically the boundary was moved from where Barking Creek historically was to where it is now)
- Redbridge took the northernmost tip of Dagenham and a small area from Chigwell (most of which remained in Essex) so that the Hainault Estate was no longer trisected
A shame that Redbridge did not extend further out, the London boundary in that area seems too tightly drawn. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 9, 2021 22:45:37 GMT
Yes: - Wandsworth was split, with Clapham and Streatham merging with Lambeth to form the new Lambeth and the rest merging with Battersea to form the new Wandsworth
- Chislehurst and Sidcup was split in half between Bexley and Bromley
- Newham was mainly a merger of West Ham and East Ham, but also took North Woolwich from Woolwich and an unpopulated area of Barking covering some marshland and industry (basically the boundary was moved from where Barking Creek historically was to where it is now)
- Redbridge took the northernmost tip of Dagenham and a small area from Chigwell (most of which remained in Essex) so that the Hainault Estate was no longer trisected
A shame that Redbridge did not extend further out, the London boundary in that area seems too tightly drawn. Indeed, and there are several communities which are split by the London border - Grange Hill and Fairlop are basically contiguous but either side of the border; Roding Valley tube station is right on the border. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Jan 9, 2021 23:02:11 GMT
Yes: - Wandsworth was split, with Clapham and Streatham merging with Lambeth to form the new Lambeth and the rest merging with Battersea to form the new Wandsworth
- Chislehurst and Sidcup was split in half between Bexley and Bromley
- Newham was mainly a merger of West Ham and East Ham, but also took North Woolwich from Woolwich and an unpopulated area of Barking covering some marshland and industry (basically the boundary was moved from where Barking Creek historically was to where it is now)
- Redbridge took the northernmost tip of Dagenham and a small area from Chigwell (most of which remained in Essex) so that the Hainault Estate was no longer trisected
A shame that Redbridge did not extend further out, the London boundary in that area seems too tightly drawn. I'd tend to prefer putting suburbs with exurbs: pity the boundary wasn't drawn along the North Circular Road and the River Roding. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jan 10, 2021 14:35:27 GMT
 Romford 72002 (existing seat doesn't need changing but adding either Hacton or St Andrews to Dagenham & Rainham would create a weird three way split of Hornchurch town) Hornchurch & Upminster 70938 Dagenham & Rainham 74489 Barking 72591 (not too happy about the Gascoigne orphan but it was the only (or best) way to make the Newham seats work) Ilford South 74498 Ilford North 74251 Chingford & Woodford 75727 Walthamstow 70111 Leyton & Wanstead 72036 East Ham 76999 West Ham 70841 Poplar & Canning Town 75806 Bow & Bromley 74311 Bethnal Green & Stepney 76295 You can reconfigure those Tower Hamlets seats so the two Bow wards go to Bethnal Green & Stepney (ie Bethnal Green & Bow) and are replaced by Stepney Green, Shadwell and St Katherine's (Stepney & Bromley? Limehouse and Poplar wards could be exchanged) |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jan 11, 2021 19:10:04 GMT
Pete Whitehead was talking about not having been able to find a 5-seat solution for Tower Hamlets and Newham. I think I have one. Splits Bromley North from Bromley South, but otherwise I'm happy enough with it.  Bethnal Green 77000 Polar & Limehouse 75814 Stratford & Bow 73574 Canning Town 70865 East Ham 70902 The snag is that I'm struggling to get 9 seats out of the remaining East London boroughs, so I'm hoping the new wards in Havering will bail me out there.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jan 11, 2021 19:30:25 GMT
Pete Whitehead was talking about not having been able to find a 5-seat solution for Tower Hamlets and Newham. I think I have one. Splits Bromley North from Bromley South, but otherwise I'm happy enough with it. Bethnal Green 77000 Polar & Limehouse 75814 Stratford & Bow 73574 Canning Town 70865 East Ham 70902 The snag is that I'm struggling to get 9 seats out of the remaining East London boroughs, so I'm hoping the new wards in Havering will bail me out there. Startford/Bow is a good place to cross- the trouble I'd then have I think is sorting the other 9 seats to the East. removing Gascoigne from the equation was as much an answer to that - I think you need to take a ward from Waltham Forest, Redbridge or Barking into a Newham seat and that was the best fit |
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