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Post by islington on Mar 20, 2021 17:20:08 GMT
There's also no crossing of the Mersey to justify throwing Penketh and Cuerdley into that Northwich North seat. I agree with your conclusions. I'm prepared to defend my plan for no seats crossing the Lancashire/GM or Lancashire/Merseyside boundary as I think that scheme works well on its own terms, but I'm not prepared to defend my plan for the Cheshires/Wirral/Halton/Warrington above. I've only just realised - is the reason for the Northwich seat being called 'Weaver Vale' due to possible confusion with Norwich? Personally I'd prefer Mid Cheshire but there we are. I doubt it. After all we have Newtownabbey and Newton Abbot, plus Louth (town in Lincs) and Louth (county in Ireland) have both had Westminster constituencies named after them, as have no fewer than four separate places called Newport (often in overlapping periods). We had a Waterloo that was in Lancashire, near Liverpool, not in inner south London as one might suppose. Probably there are other examples.
So no, I don't see any evidence of efforts to avoid this kind of confusion.
The current 'Weaver Vale' seat is a mess, and I suspect the name was a compromise because it includes chunks of Runcorn, but I agree 'Mid Cheshire' would have been better.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Mar 20, 2021 17:34:24 GMT
I've only just realised - is the reason for the Northwich seat being called 'Weaver Vale' due to possible confusion with Norwich? Personally I'd prefer Mid Cheshire but there we are. I doubt it. After all we have Newtownabbey and Newton Abbot, plus Louth (town in Lincs) and Louth (county in Ireland) have both had Westminster constituencies named after them, as have no fewer than four separate places called Newport (often in overlapping periods). We had a Waterloo that was in Lancashire, near Liverpool, not in inner south London as one might suppose. Probably there are other examples. So no, I don't see any evidence of efforts to avoid this kind of confusion. The current 'Weaver Vale' seat is a mess, and I suspect the name was a compromise because it includes chunks of Runcorn, but I agree 'Mid Cheshire' would have been better. Presumably 'Park' was added to the Richmond in SW London to avoid confusion with Richmond (Yorks)?
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Post by owainsutton on Mar 20, 2021 17:53:55 GMT
I doubt it. After all we have Newtownabbey and Newton Abbot, plus Louth (town in Lincs) and Louth (county in Ireland) have both had Westminster constituencies named after them, as have no fewer than four separate places called Newport (often in overlapping periods). We had a Waterloo that was in Lancashire, near Liverpool, not in inner south London as one might suppose. Probably there are other examples. So no, I don't see any evidence of efforts to avoid this kind of confusion. The current 'Weaver Vale' seat is a mess, and I suspect the name was a compromise because it includes chunks of Runcorn, but I agree 'Mid Cheshire' would have been better. Presumably 'Park' was added to the Richmond in SW London to avoid confusion with Richmond (Yorks)? The predecessor, Richmond, was informally referred to as Richmond (Surrey). What I'm not able to find is when "Richmond (Yorks)" became the formal name of the northern seat, being the one with a continuous history of many centuries.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 20, 2021 17:58:58 GMT
Presumably 'Park' was added to the Richmond in SW London to avoid confusion with Richmond (Yorks)? The predecessor, Richmond, was informally referred to as Richmond (Surrey). What I'm not able to find is when "Richmond (Yorks)" became the formal name of the northern seat, being the one with a continuous history of many centuries. Well directly before it was called Richmond Park the name was Richmond & Barnes (as this corresponded with the period when the seat included, er.. East Twickenham) Before that it was technically Richmond upon Thames, Richmond as all London seats had their borough prefix at that time. So the Richmond (Surrey) formulation would have ended in 1974 (still a decade after Richmond had ceased to be administratively in Surrey)
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Mar 20, 2021 21:35:11 GMT
I've only just realised - is the reason for the Northwich seat being called 'Weaver Vale' due to possible confusion with Norwich? Personally I'd prefer Mid Cheshire but there we are. I doubt it. After all we have Newtownabbey and Newton Abbot, plus Louth (town in Lincs) and Louth (county in Ireland) have both had Westminster constituencies named after them, as have no fewer than four separate places called Newport (often in overlapping periods). We had a Waterloo that was in Lancashire, near Liverpool, not in inner south London as one might suppose. Probably there are other examples.
So no, I don't see any evidence of efforts to avoid this kind of confusion.
The current 'Weaver Vale' seat is a mess, and I suspect the name was a compromise because it includes chunks of Runcorn, but I agree 'Mid Cheshire' would have been better. Didn't know there were that many Newports! I couldn't find any record of a Newtownabbey Westminster constituency though, it is now East Antrim, previously North/South/just Antrim, but there is one in the NI assembly. It also appears Newton Abbot was only created in 2010, but happy to be corrected if either is not the case! Not sure if I prefer it or not to 'Teignbridge'. Newton Abbot sounds like the surname of a Tory MP and not a real place. Then again, while I hadn't heard of Newtownabbey or Newton Abbot (or at least couldn't tell you where they are), I doubt people living in either of them have heard of (or can correctly pronounce) Blackley and Broughton, so I guess we can call it even. P.S. Broughton is another one we can add to this list as I've been reliably informed on here that there are several Broughtons across the country. Manchester North and Salford East might be long-winded, but at least it's pronounceable and placeable by everyone else.
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YL
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Post by YL on Mar 20, 2021 23:00:39 GMT
Newton Abbot is hardly obscure to anyone who has travelled in the South West by rail.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Mar 20, 2021 23:17:19 GMT
Newton Abbot is hardly obscure to anyone who has travelled in the South West by rail. Or even to anyone who has heard the announcement for the Penzance train from Glasgow (about 30 stations in all). I have the full 11-hour journey down on my bucket list.
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Post by greenhert on Mar 20, 2021 23:22:22 GMT
I doubt it. After all we have Newtownabbey and Newton Abbot, plus Louth (town in Lincs) and Louth (county in Ireland) have both had Westminster constituencies named after them, as have no fewer than four separate places called Newport (often in overlapping periods). We had a Waterloo that was in Lancashire, near Liverpool, not in inner south London as one might suppose. Probably there are other examples.
So no, I don't see any evidence of efforts to avoid this kind of confusion.
The current 'Weaver Vale' seat is a mess, and I suspect the name was a compromise because it includes chunks of Runcorn, but I agree 'Mid Cheshire' would have been better. Didn't know there were that many Newports! I couldn't find any record of a Newtownabbey Westminster constituency though, it is now East Antrim, previously North/South/just Antrim, but there is one in the NI assembly. It also appears Newton Abbot was only created in 2010, but happy to be corrected if either is not the case! Not sure if I prefer it or not to 'Teignbridge'. Newton Abbot sounds like the surname of a Tory MP and not a real place. Then again, while I hadn't heard of Newtownabbey or Newton Abbot (or at least couldn't tell you where they are), I doubt people living in either of them have heard of (or can correctly pronounce) Blackley and Broughton, so I guess we can call it even. P.S. Broughton is another one we can add to this list as I've been reliably informed on here that there are several Broughtons across the country. Manchester North and Salford East might be long-winded, but at least it's pronounceable and placeable by everyone else. There was never a Newtonabbey Westminster constituency but there was a Newtonabbey constituency of the old Northern Irish Parliament, which only existed from 1969 to 1973.
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Mar 21, 2021 1:00:27 GMT
Didn't know there were that many Newports! I couldn't find any record of a Newtownabbey Westminster constituency though, it is now East Antrim, previously North/South/just Antrim, but there is one in the NI assembly. It also appears Newton Abbot was only created in 2010, but happy to be corrected if either is not the case! Not sure if I prefer it or not to 'Teignbridge'. Newton Abbot sounds like the surname of a Tory MP and not a real place. Then again, while I hadn't heard of Newtownabbey or Newton Abbot (or at least couldn't tell you where they are), I doubt people living in either of them have heard of (or can correctly pronounce) Blackley and Broughton, so I guess we can call it even. P.S. Broughton is another one we can add to this list as I've been reliably informed on here that there are several Broughtons across the country. Manchester North and Salford East might be long-winded, but at least it's pronounceable and placeable by everyone else. There was never a Newtonabbey Westminster constituency but there was a Newtonabbey constituency of the old Northern Irish Parliament, which only existed from 1969 to 1973. Ah - thought it was the current NI assembly. My fault for not actually clicking on the Wiki article and just reading the headline after googling "Newtownabbey constituency". I thought that as with Scotland they'd also have a penchant for different constituencies/names for their assembly, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Don't get me started on 'Almond Valley' instead of Livingston...
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Mar 21, 2021 9:42:05 GMT
In Scotland the names are different as the boundaries are different. In Northern Ireland the same constituencies are used for Westminster and Stormont.
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Post by islington on Mar 21, 2021 11:04:10 GMT
I doubt it. After all we have Newtownabbey and Newton Abbot, plus Louth (town in Lincs) and Louth (county in Ireland) have both had Westminster constituencies named after them, as have no fewer than four separate places called Newport (often in overlapping periods). We had a Waterloo that was in Lancashire, near Liverpool, not in inner south London as one might suppose. Probably there are other examples. So no, I don't see any evidence of efforts to avoid this kind of confusion. The current 'Weaver Vale' seat is a mess, and I suspect the name was a compromise because it includes chunks of Runcorn, but I agree 'Mid Cheshire' would have been better. Didn't know there were that many Newports! Then again, while I hadn't heard of Newtownabbey or Newton Abbot (or at least couldn't tell you where they are), I doubt people living in either of them have heard of (or can correctly pronounce) Blackley and Broughton, so I guess we can call it even. Despite living in Islington I'm fairly confident of my pronunciation of Blackley (first syllable 'Blake' not 'Black') but much less so regarding Broughton - I assume the 'ough' is as in 'ought' but of course it might be as in 'bough' or 'rough' or 'cough' or 'though' so I'd be grateful for confirmation or correction. Regarding Newports: Prior to the Great Reform Act there were three Parliamentary boroughs of this name. There was one in the Isle of Wight (with two MPs) and a very small Cornish borough (also with two MPs) immediately adjoining Launceston. In addition there was a third Parliamentary borough of the same name in Monmouthshire, but it did not have an MP to itself because it was contributory to Monmouth Boroughs (which returned one MP). The Cornish Newport fell victim to the 1832 Act, being absorbed into Launceston; but the other two survived, with the IoW Newport represented in its own right (although it was cut to one MP in 1868), and the other still part of Monmouth Boroughs. In 1885 the IoW Newport was abolished but happily the supply of Newports was maintained by the creation of a new constituency of that name in Shropshire, and here's the cartographic evidence (it's the one in green).
Note 1: As with a lot of constituencies in the period 1885 to 1918 there were two official versions of the name ('the Northern or Newport division of Shropshire') but in practice with names like this the 'town' version was generally used in preference to the 'compass-point county' version.
Note 2: The map also shows a Wellington constituency, which existed at the same time as another seat of the same name in Somerset.
In 1918 the Newport (Salop) seat disappeared but at the same time Monmouth Boroughs was abolished and Newport got an MP to itself; therefore at the successive reviews of 1885 and 1918 Newport, as the name of a Parliamentary seat, had been transferred first from IoW to Shropshire and thence to south Wales.
In 1983 the Newport seat was divided into East and West so since that date there has been, tragically, no constituency of Newport as such.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 21, 2021 11:46:13 GMT
Didn't know there were that many Newports! Then again, while I hadn't heard of Newtownabbey or Newton Abbot (or at least couldn't tell you where they are), I doubt people living in either of them have heard of (or can correctly pronounce) Blackley and Broughton, so I guess we can call it even. Despite living in Islington I'm fairly confident of my pronunciation of Blackley (first syllable 'Blake' not 'Black') but much less so regarding Broughton - I assume the 'ough' is as in 'ought' but of course it might be as in 'bough' or 'rough' or 'cough' or 'though' so I'd be grateful for confirmation or correction. Regarding Newports: Prior to the Great Reform Act there were three Parliamentary boroughs of this name. There was one in the Isle of Wight (with two MPs) and a very small Cornish borough (also with two MPs) immediately adjoining Launceston. In addition there was a third Parliamentary borough of the same name in Monmouthshire, but it did not have an MP to itself because it was contributory to Monmouth Boroughs (which returned one MP). The Cornish Newport fell victim to the 1832 Act, being absorbed into Launceston; but the other two survived, with the IoW Newport represented in its own right (although it was cut to one MP in 1868), and the other still part of Monmouth Boroughs. In 1885 the IoW Newport was abolished but happily the supply of Newports was maintained by the creation of a new constituency of that name in Shropshire, and here's the cartographical evidence (it's the one in green).
Note 1: As with a lot of constituencies in the period 1885 to 1918 there were two official versions of the name ('the Northern or Newport division of Shropshire') but in practice with names like this the 'town' version was generally used in preference to the 'compass-point county' version.
Note 2: The map also shows a Wellington constituency, which existed at the same time as another seat of the same name in Somerset.
In 1918 the Newport (Salop) seat disappeared but at the same time Monmouth Boroughs was abolished and Newport got an MP to itself; therefore at the successive reviews of 1885 and 1918 Newport, as the name of a Parliamentary seat, had been transferred first from IoW to Shropshire and thence to south Wales.
In 1983 the Newport seat was divided into East and West so since that dale there has been, tragically, no constituency of Newport as such.
I had never considered pronunciation to be a problem. I use and will continue to use Black Lee and Braw Ton
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 21, 2021 13:22:32 GMT
Despite living in Islington I'm fairly confident of my pronunciation of Blackley (first syllable 'Blake' not 'Black') but much less so regarding Broughton - I assume the 'ough' is as in 'ought' but of course it might be as in 'bough' or 'rough' or 'cough' or 'though' so I'd be grateful for confirmation or correction. Regarding Newports: Prior to the Great Reform Act there were three Parliamentary boroughs of this name. There was one in the Isle of Wight (with two MPs) and a very small Cornish borough (also with two MPs) immediately adjoining Launceston. In addition there was a third Parliamentary borough of the same name in Monmouthshire, but it did not have an MP to itself because it was contributory to Monmouth Boroughs (which returned one MP). The Cornish Newport fell victim to the 1832 Act, being absorbed into Launceston; but the other two survived, with the IoW Newport represented in its own right (although it was cut to one MP in 1868), and the other still part of Monmouth Boroughs. In 1885 the IoW Newport was abolished but happily the supply of Newports was maintained by the creation of a new constituency of that name in Shropshire, and here's the cartographical evidence (it's the one in green).
Note 1: As with a lot of constituencies in the period 1885 to 1918 there were two official versions of the name ('the Northern or Newport division of Shropshire') but in practice with names like this the 'town' version was generally used in preference to the 'compass-point county' version.
Note 2: The map also shows a Wellington constituency, which existed at the same time as another seat of the same name in Somerset.
In 1918 the Newport (Salop) seat disappeared but at the same time Monmouth Boroughs was abolished and Newport got an MP to itself; therefore at the successive reviews of 1885 and 1918 Newport, as the name of a Parliamentary seat, had been transferred first from IoW to Shropshire and thence to south Wales.
In 1983 the Newport seat was divided into East and West so since that dale there has been, tragically, no constituency of Newport as such.
I had never considered pronunciation to be a problem. I use and will continue to use Black Lee and Braw Ton Where do you live Carlton? Greenhill or Gennell?
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 21, 2021 13:38:49 GMT
I had never considered pronunciation to be a problem. I use and will continue to use Black Lee and Braw Ton Where do you live Carlton? Greenhill or Gennell? Nice point J G. I live in Green Hill next to Bee Cheefe.
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Adrian
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Post by Adrian on Mar 23, 2021 4:02:59 GMT
There's also no crossing of the Mersey to justify throwing Penketh and Cuerdley into that Northwich North seat. I agree with your conclusions. I'm prepared to defend my plan for no seats crossing the Lancashire/GM or Lancashire/Merseyside boundary as I think that scheme works well on its own terms, but I'm not prepared to defend my plan for the Cheshires/Wirral/Halton/Warrington above. I've only just realised - is the reason for the Northwich seat being called 'Weaver Vale' due to possible confusion with Norwich? Personally I'd prefer Mid Cheshire but there we are. No, the name arose because the seat doesn't include all of Northwich but does include parts of Runcorn. The Vale part of the name evokes the former Vale Royal district.
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Adrian
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Post by Adrian on Mar 23, 2021 4:05:37 GMT
I had never considered pronunciation to be a problem. I use and will continue to use Black Lee and Braw Ton Why?
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Mar 23, 2021 5:37:46 GMT
Imagine not having heard of Newton Abbot.
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Post by rivers10 on Jun 7, 2021 22:02:27 GMT
Well the proposals for Liverpool are diabolical as expected
A god awful looking Wavertree seat, a cross borough West Derby that takes in some Huyton wards from Knowsley and worst of all a "Liverpool Norris Green" seat which is not only a bad name but also as well as encompassing the Northern end of Liverpool stretches into Sefton by taking in the Molyneux ward and ergo a slice of Maghull!!! A more forced, disjointed and half arsed pairing you'll struggle to find anywhere in the country
Rest of Merseyside is basically a Tory gerrymander with a new Southport minus Ainsdale but including some rural West Lancs wards and the new Wirral West being the closest thing realistically possible to a Tory seat on the Wirral with some ample ward splits which begs the question why couldn't they have used them elsewhere?
I havent got the mental fortitude to look at what's been proposed elsewhere
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Post by rivers10 on Jun 7, 2021 22:27:36 GMT
Have the proposals already been released? Not officially but I have my sources *shuffles away mysteriously* In all seriousness like others here I just know party members who have been handed the embargoed copies by their MP's
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Post by Wisconsin on Jun 7, 2021 22:31:30 GMT
Do we really need to call the recommendations of an independent body gerrymandering?
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