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Post by norflondon on Jul 15, 2024 22:32:14 GMT
Wasn't it : "what's the number for Europe "...?
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jul 16, 2024 0:02:32 GMT
The future of Anglo-American relations looks great with Vance and Lammy in positions of authority🙄.
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Jack
Reform Party
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Post by Jack on Jul 16, 2024 0:05:00 GMT
The future of Anglo-American relations looks great with Vance and Lammy in positions of authority🙄. At least he's running for Vice President, because he wouldn't get a career as a comedian. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 16, 2024 3:13:37 GMT
They won't just abandon NATO, they'll abandon Taiwan. It would probably be wise to, as it's OK to park your military in another powers' back garden if they're prostrate, but that will unwind when they pick themselves up as China is now But Trump and Vance are very hostile towards China Russia is a distraction to a lot of China hawks Right on cue, the HK stock markets are down (as a proxy for China). Vance is clearly seen as no friend of China. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 16, 2024 3:20:31 GMT
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 16, 2024 4:56:20 GMT
The UK left the EU. What 'plan'? The last 2 posts summarise everything that is terrifying for the UK about what may be about to unfold. I lived through the Cold War but I've never been more worried about the existential threat to our nation as a Western Democracy more than I do right now. I'm far more worried about an emboldened Putin (if Ukraine is allowed to fall) than I ever was about the Soviet Union. Any weakening of NATO (mainly driven by the US of course) combined with our 'separation' from our closest democratic neighbours in Europe makes us potential sitting ducks. Of course Trump/vance could be all talk, no substance, but at this moment in time we can only judge from what they both say or have said. Placations of "dont worry, they wont really abandon NATO. It's all election talk" are not sufficiently reassuring at the present time. Existential threat to our nation as a western democracy? Existential! I'm sorry but I really can't agree with you. Britain will bumble on as a democracy and a western democracy at that, long after most other countries have fallen to other ideas. It's our way. Will the country have policies that you'd like and act in a way you'd wish, quite likely not, but it will still be Western democracy. We will be Western democracy long after Putin dies and the EU breaks up. Existential threat, such exaggeration, weakens the rest of your arguments. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 16, 2024 6:53:42 GMT
I hope we, the UK, have a plan on what to do if NATO collapses and the US retreats further into isolationism and/or authoritarianism. These are very real prospects now. I'm worried that we have our own all-too powerful isolationist voices here, bit least Nigel Farage, currently flying to be at Trump's side. I have always been a bit of an Isolationist and wonder if the world would actually be safer and nicer if there was more isolationism, especially by the powerful states? Small wars tend to stay small and relatively insignificant (and to be over fairly quickly) if no one else takes sides over them and particularly avoids using them as proxies in an elaborate game of world domination. Stay strong, well armed and powerful, but be very reluctant to use that power except for literal self defence. Avoid morality, posturing, grandstanding, being a world policeman or ever taking sides. It usually does not help, costs more lives, ups the destruction and hugely reduces the wealth creation potential. |
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Jul 16, 2024 6:57:59 GMT
It would probably be wise to, as it's OK to park your military in another powers' back garden if they're prostrate, but that will unwind when they pick themselves up as China is now But Trump and Vance are very hostile towards China Russia is a distraction to a lot of China hawks Right on cue, the HK stock markets are down (as a proxy for China). Vance is clearly seen as no friend of China. China will buy Trump the same way Putin did. Trump's U-turn on the Tiktok and the ban on foreign government ownership of media, and his recent comments about not defending Taiwan "because they took our business" show that all he cares about is money. Trump's foreign policy is for sale, and big donors and supporters with major Chinese interests (e.g. Musk) will ensure that Trump will not put his own profits at risk for US strategic goals. |
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Post by bigfatron on Jul 16, 2024 6:58:50 GMT
I'm worried that we have our own all-too powerful isolationist voices here, bit least Nigel Farage, currently flying to be at Trump's side. I have always been a bit of an Isolationist and wonder if the world would actually be safer and nicer if there was more isolationism, especially by the powerful states? Small wars tend to stay small and relatively insignificant (and to be over fairly quickly) if no one else takes sides over them and particularly avoids using them as proxies in an elaborate game of world domination. Stay strong, well armed and powerful, but be very reluctant to use that power except for literal self defence. Avoid morality, posturing, grandstanding, being a world policeman or ever taking sides. It usually does not help, costs more lives, ups the destruction and hugely reduces the wealth creation potential. This was, of course, the policy of the UK and US (and many other countries) in the 1930’s - that ended well… PS ‘All against all’ is a very informative book about this period. |
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Post by bigfatron on Jul 16, 2024 7:01:32 GMT
Right on cue, the HK stock markets are down (as a proxy for China). Vance is clearly seen as no friend of China. China will buy Trump the same way Putin did. Trump's U-turn on the Tiktok and the ban on foreign government ownership of media, and his recent comments about not defending Taiwan "because they took our business" show that all he cares about is money. Trump's foreign policy is for sale, and big donors and supporters with major Chinese interests (e.g. Musk) will ensure that Trump will not put his own profits at risk for US strategic goals. And, thanks to the recent Supreme Court ruling, Trump can take open and outright bribes for pardons, policy changes, etc and no longer be able to be prosecuted! |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 16, 2024 7:04:29 GMT
The UK left the EU. What 'plan'? The last 2 posts summarise everything that is terrifying for the UK about what may be about to unfold. I lived through the Cold War but I've never been more worried about the existential threat to our nation as a Western Democracy more than I do right now. I'm far more worried about an emboldened Putin (if Ukraine is allowed to fall) than I ever was about the Soviet Union. Any weakening of NATO (mainly driven by the US of course) combined with our 'separation' from our closest democratic neighbours in Europe makes us potential sitting ducks. Of course Trump/vance could be all talk, no substance, but at this moment in time we can only judge from what they both say or have said. Placations of "dont worry, they wont really abandon NATO. It's all election talk" are not sufficiently reassuring at the present time. For the life of me I cannot see any existential threat to the UK from anywhere except militant Islamism and the attached latent terrorism and 5th column infiltration to the fabric of our society; coupled with the long term desire of China to dominate and change the world to its liking and image. Frankly I see no other threats at all. Why on earth would Russia be even interested in us except as a client for exports and a potential ally against its own threats? By strutting about and posturing over the middle east and Ukraine we must be irritating Russia a great deal but not to the extent of even breaking off normal diplomatic relation let alone anything more serious. It know we are far too powerless to cause it much of a threat and recognises that the problems it has discovered in even dealing with a next door neighbour preclude any form of wider land actions in western Europe, let alone offshore islands. Reality should be your comfort. The Cold War was a very real threat indeed. The present poses virtually no threat of any sort at all. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 16, 2024 7:11:44 GMT
The last 2 posts summarise everything that is terrifying for the UK about what may be about to unfold. I lived through the Cold War but I've never been more worried about the existential threat to our nation as a Western Democracy more than I do right now. I'm far more worried about an emboldened Putin (if Ukraine is allowed to fall) than I ever was about the Soviet Union. Any weakening of NATO (mainly driven by the US of course) combined with our 'separation' from our closest democratic neighbours in Europe makes us potential sitting ducks. Of course Trump/vance could be all talk, no substance, but at this moment in time we can only judge from what they both say or have said. Placations of "dont worry, they wont really abandon NATO. It's all election talk" are not sufficiently reassuring at the present time. I share your wariness. We're hurtling towards destruction because rich white men have grown bored. With few wars to engage in, and most of their respective populations giving more money to Amazon and Disney etc, they've chosen to isolate their countries and then blow us to bits. Use Constitutions to destroy themselves, like self-destructive paper in the comics. Brexit looks all the more ridiculous now the US is about to enter its dark period. No we are not and the rich white men have a vested interest in not having wars or threats to their wealth, their property and lifestyle. It is the non white hot heads one must worry about especially the islamists who are on the warlike rise. The smart move would be for all powerful nations to sink petty differences and to crush Islam. But far better to try and manage our way through it all intact and hope that modernist secularism destroys Islam for us just as it has Christianity. |
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Post by London Lad on Jul 16, 2024 7:13:41 GMT
I have always been a bit of an Isolationist and wonder if the world would actually be safer and nicer if there was more isolationism, especially by the powerful states? Small wars tend to stay small and relatively insignificant (and to be over fairly quickly) if no one else takes sides over them and particularly avoids using them as proxies in an elaborate game of world domination. Stay strong, well armed and powerful, but be very reluctant to use that power except for literal self defence. Avoid morality, posturing, grandstanding, being a world policeman or ever taking sides. It usually does not help, costs more lives, ups the destruction and hugely reduces the wealth creation potential. This was, of course, the policy of the UK and US (and many other countries) in the 1930’s - that ended well… PS ‘All against all’ is a very informative book about this period. and the alternative did end well? - Iraq?, Afghanistan, Libya etc... |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Jul 16, 2024 7:15:39 GMT
I share your wariness. We're hurtling towards destruction because rich white men have grown bored. With few wars to engage in, and most of their respective populations giving more money to Amazon and Disney etc, they've chosen to isolate their countries and then blow us to bits. Use Constitutions to destroy themselves, like self-destructive paper in the comics. Brexit looks all the more ridiculous now the US is about to enter its dark period. No we are not and the rich white men have a vested interest in not having wars or threats to their wealth, their property and lifestyle. It is the non white hot heads one must worry about especially the islamists who are on the warlike rise. The smart move would be for all powerful nations to sink petty differences and to crush Islam. But far better to try and manage our way through it all intact and hope that modernist secularism destroys Islam for us just as it has Christianity. Unfortunately the rich white men in Russia are using a war as a distraction so the people don't notice how rich the oligarchs have become at the Russian people's expense. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 16, 2024 7:18:21 GMT
No we are not and the rich white men have a vested interest in not having wars or threats to their wealth, their property and lifestyle. It is the non white hot heads one must worry about especially the islamists who are on the warlike rise. The smart move would be for all powerful nations to sink petty differences and to crush Islam. But far better to try and manage our way through it all intact and hope that modernist secularism destroys Islam for us just as it has Christianity. Unfortunately the rich white men in Russia are using a war as a distraction so the people don't notice how rich the oligarchs have become at the Russian people's expense. No they aren't and as a proposition it makes no sense at all. |
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Post by bigfatron on Jul 16, 2024 7:18:42 GMT
It would probably be wise to, as it's OK to park your military in another powers' back garden if they're prostrate, but that will unwind when they pick themselves up as China is now But Trump and Vance are very hostile towards China Russia is a distraction to a lot of China hawks Right on cue, the HK stock markets are down (as a proxy for China). Vance is clearly seen as no friend of China. All European stock markets have opened down too - he's not seen as a friend to the UK, Europe and Ukraine either... I suspect the Hang Seng reaction is due to the uncertainty arising from the likely increased threat to Taiwan and thus of regional war in the event Trump and Vance are elected, rather than any concern that Vance is a threat to China. |
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Post by bigfatron on Jul 16, 2024 7:20:31 GMT
This was, of course, the policy of the UK and US (and many other countries) in the 1930’s - that ended well… PS ‘All against all’ is a very informative book about this period. and the alternative did end well? - Iraq?, Afghanistan, Libya etc... You're comparing Iraq and Afghanistan to the Second World War?! Really?! |
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Post by bigfatron on Jul 16, 2024 7:23:57 GMT
Right on cue, the HK stock markets are down (as a proxy for China). Vance is clearly seen as no friend of China. I suspect the Hang Seng reaction is due to the uncertainty arising from the likely increased threat to Taiwan and thus of regional war in the event Trump and Vance are elected, rather than any concern that Vance is a threat to China. Being a bit more serious about this, in Europe the stocks hit hardest are the global suppliers (especially minerals) and exporters, so I suspect the tick down yesterday (when Vance was trailed) and today (post announcement) arises from concerns around the increased likelihood of trade tariffs and restrictions i the event of a Trump/Vance win, reducing international trade and growth. |
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Post by London Lad on Jul 16, 2024 7:26:28 GMT
and the alternative did end well? - Iraq?, Afghanistan, Libya etc... You're comparing Iraq and Afghanistan to the Second World War?! Really?! WW2 was over in 6 years - over 2 decades later the results of our attempts to police the world are still mired in conflict. Sending in the gunboats is so 19th Century - time for a different approach. |
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right
Conservative
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Post by right on Jul 16, 2024 7:40:33 GMT
Right on cue, the HK stock markets are down (as a proxy for China). Vance is clearly seen as no friend of China. China will buy Trump the same way Putin did. Trump's U-turn on the Tiktok and the ban on foreign government ownership of media, and his recent comments about not defending Taiwan "because they took our business" show that all he cares about is money. Trump's foreign policy is for sale, and big donors and supporters with major Chinese interests (e.g. Musk) will ensure that Trump will not put his own profits at risk for US strategic goals. Gosh, was Obama brought by Russia as well? If the only explanation for thinking that fighting Russia over Ukraine is a fool's errand, then some of that Kremlin gold must have gone to Obama to secure his inaction. His purported reason that Russia is next to Ukraine and the US can only be bought. When we hear football fans speculate that the referee or the linesman must have been bought we laugh at how football fans voluntarily drop their IQs to feel part of a crowd. That's you that is. |
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