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Post by batman on Feb 15, 2023 21:28:39 GMT
Did Blair ever actually live in Islington North or was he spared the opportunity to vote for Corbyn? I note that in the last election Margaret Hodge had "(address in Islington North Constituency)" which must have made the ballot paper interesting for her. He was in south (in a 4 million quid house). Most of stereotypical guardianista Islington is in south as I'm sure you know. actually the demographics of the 2 Islington constituencies are not that dissimilar. Every Islington council ward has between 30 and 48% of council-built housing, for example, but none over 50%, and while Islington North is a bit less expensive it has plenty of the kind of electors that you describe/caricature |
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Post by batman on Feb 15, 2023 21:32:58 GMT
And perhaps you are hypocritical. I am aware of no substantial legal authorities who believe that the 2003 attack on Iraq was anything but illegal. The refusal to allow Hans Blix to complete his weapons inspections was clear evidence that Blair and Bush were hell bent on war. sorry Matt but I seek leave to reply to this. Personally, I remain opposed to military action in Iraq, and had I been a Labour MP I would have voted against military action. But I don't think your statement about substantial legal authorities is correct. I oppose the military action on principle, not because I think it was illegal. I wish others would do the same instead of banging on about it being illegal. All sorts of things are illegal but morally right, or legal and morally wrong. The stuff that was put out by Brian Haw and some others, that Blair wanted to commit genocide against Iraqi children, is complete nonsense. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 15, 2023 21:44:26 GMT
Did Blair ever actually live in Islington North or was he spared the opportunity to vote for Corbyn? I note that in the last election Margaret Hodge had "(address in Islington North Constituency)" which must have made the ballot paper interesting for her. can help you there Tim. I remember very well that during the general election campaign Tony Blair was an elector in the other Islington constituency, and had a "Vote Chris Smith Labour" poster in his window.  |
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 15, 2023 21:52:53 GMT
can help you there Tim. I remember very well that during the general election campaign Tony Blair was an elector in the other Islington constituency, and had a "Vote Chris Smith Labour" poster in his window. Is that from "Cherie Blair learns to not answer the door"? |
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r34t
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Post by r34t on Feb 16, 2023 5:02:45 GMT
doesn't appear to open anything? It opens a doc from the commons library for me ?? Not sure why not for you I’m afraid |
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Post by mattbewilson on Feb 16, 2023 9:03:41 GMT
doesn't appear to open anything? It opens a doc from the commons library for me ?? Not sure why not for you I’m afraid ok, tried again but just says can't open. Oh well, matters not |
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graham
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Post by graham on Feb 16, 2023 12:11:39 GMT
And perhaps you are hypocritical. I am aware of no substantial legal authorities who believe that the 2003 attack on Iraq was anything but illegal. The refusal to allow Hans Blix to complete his weapons inspections was clear evidence that Blair and Bush were hell bent on war. sorry Matt but I seek leave to reply to this. Personally, I remain opposed to military action in Iraq, and had I been a Labour MP I would have voted against military action. But I don't think your statement about substantial legal authorities is correct. I oppose the military action on principle, not because I think it was illegal. I wish others would do the same instead of banging on about it being illegal. All sorts of things are illegal but morally right, or legal and morally wrong. The stuff that was put out by Brian Haw and some others, that Blair wanted to commit genocide against Iraqi children, is complete nonsense. I am not aware that anyone has accused Blair of wanting to commit genocide against Iraqi children , and have never suggested that.
Starmer himself - though not an MP at the time - wrote an article very critical of the 2003 invasion in legal terms- and in doing so he reflected the concensus view among International Lawyers. There were individual exceptions to that - as exemplified by the article referred to above by soeone from the US establishment who has close links to Israel.
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Post by batman on Feb 16, 2023 12:49:17 GMT
You didn't suggest it, but Brian Haw certainly did - it was written on one of the many banners that accompanied his protest in Parliament Square.
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Clark
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Post by Clark on Feb 16, 2023 15:14:42 GMT
Honestly, I think the treatment Corbyn has received over the years is an utter disgrace. I like the man and won't get sucked in by right wing media drivel
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Feb 16, 2023 22:24:28 GMT
I really don't believe that the War in Ukraine is likely to be a salient issue in Islington North - or GB as a whole. Ditto attitudes to Brexit. Agreed, certainly with the cost of living, pressure on the NHS, homelessness, etc, I think a populist 'we spend xxx billions on Ukraine, let's spend it on the UK/NHS instead' could gain a lot of traction (even if people haven't learnt from a similar campaign!). Especially the longer the conflict goes on and the more Johnson and PMs since 'cheapen' it by diverting to it whenever there's any difficulty here. Much like how many on the right are making Net Zero out to be a culture war issue 'from people in ivory towers imposing it on the poor to make them colder,' they could equally start doing the same with this, on top of simply the effect of time, where naturally people will be inured to it, and that it might be alright for Johnson and his ilk to be willing on the Ukrainians from their blue-and-yellow clad heated ivory towers, but there are people in this country struggling to heat and eat. It might sound harsh but I think many will begin to feel that way, I really think the photo-ops have an opposite effect. And on those with a more international outlook, Turkey/Syria is now another issue of focus, and a natural disaster at that, equally worthy of attention. After all Corbyn is a populist, and if he went down the route of a simple message along the lines of helping people at home first, rather than putting out what some might feel as Russian-sympathetic messages, he could make considerable inroads. |
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Post by aargauer on Feb 16, 2023 22:36:01 GMT
Honestly, I think the treatment Corbyn has received over the years is an utter disgrace. I like the man and won't get sucked in by right wing media drivel You really don't think he brought any of this on himself? The only thing I don't understand is why he fooled so many bright labour types. It was immediately obvious to even a slightly interested observer that he is intellectually lazy, refuses to compromise with reality and takes on positions with a religious like conviction including any anti-western conspiracy theory going (including but not limited to anti semitic ones). You only have to read about the ludicrous way he split up with his ex over his children going to grammar school to realise he's someone who never grew up. It was never going to end well - and I still don't understand why he was only found out in 2019 rather than 2017. In a way Boris was never going to end well either - but unlike labour in 2015 the Tory Party were running out of cards (and have now ran out). Corbyn running the Country would be about as serious a prospect as Lee Anderson or Andrew Bridgen doing so. |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Feb 16, 2023 22:44:03 GMT
Honestly, I think the treatment Corbyn has received over the years is an utter disgrace. I like the man and won't get sucked in by right wing media drivel You really don't think he brought any of this on himself? The only thing I don't understand is why he fooled so many bright labour types. It was immediately obvious to even a slightly interested observer that he is intellectually lazy, refuses to compromise with reality and takes on positions with a religious like conviction including any anti-western conspiracy theory going (including but not limited to anti semitic ones). It was never going to end well - and I still don't understand why he was only found out in 2019 rather than 2017. In a way Boris was never going to end well either - but unlike labour in 2015 the Tory Party were running out of cards (and have now ran out). Johnson and the conservatives really have a lot to thank Theresa May for, her snap election result really flattering him and cementing him in to the following election. The 2017 GE is still to me one of the most surprising results in recent history, I'd say even more than 2019 (it was Get Brexit Done wot did it) Had she not done the snap election, I'm sure another mechanism could have been found to oust him by GE2020 - but had he stayed till then and fought GE2020, we'd be a year (or two given the likely delay to 2021 due to the pandemic) behind the current schedule! |
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Post by mattbewilson on Feb 16, 2023 23:03:17 GMT
The thing is a number of people feel, and I do have sympathy with this, that Jeremy has only ever wanted to make things better for people.
Understandably a lot of people don't agree, because of points already made and a lot of people rightly or wrongly believe Corbyn contributed to what they see as an increasingly polarised discourse.
For those who do think Jeremy genuinely spoke from the heart, even if you see the fatal flaws in his character, there will always be a feeling that a man who cared was hated.
Many won't agree but that's just life
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Post by aargauer on Feb 17, 2023 21:05:53 GMT
The thing is a number of people feel, and I do have sympathy with this, that Jeremy has only ever wanted to make things better for people. Understandably a lot of people don't agree, because of points already made and a lot of people rightly or wrongly believe Corbyn contributed to what they see as an increasingly polarised discourse. For those who do think Jeremy genuinely spoke from the heart, even if you see the fatal flaws in his character, there will always be a feeling that a man who cared was hated. Many won't agree but that's just life That's an hurdle ianrobo could clear "only ever wanted to make things better for people" and he wasn't perceived as prime minister material at times. I'm not actually sure Corbyn could. The distinct feeling I got is that he believed things because they fitted in with his quasi religious belief system rather than he rationally thought life would be better if said policies were adopted. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Feb 17, 2023 21:12:42 GMT
The thing is a number of people feel, and I do have sympathy with this, that Jeremy has only ever wanted to make things better for people. Understandably a lot of people don't agree, because of points already made and a lot of people rightly or wrongly believe Corbyn contributed to what they see as an increasingly polarised discourse. For those who do think Jeremy genuinely spoke from the heart, even if you see the fatal flaws in his character, there will always be a feeling that a man who cared was hated. Many won't agree but that's just life That's an hurdle ianrobo could clear "only ever wanted to make things better for people" and he wasn't perceived as prime minister material at times. I'm not actually sure Corbyn could. The distinct feeling I got is that he believed things because they fitted in with his quasi religious belief system rather than he rationally thought life would be better if said policies were adopted. I think sadly it's a higher bar to hurdle than it should be. At work we're having some quite big changes to shift pattern and rota. At one point a staff member says 'can I have a go at doing the rota'. I tell them they it's an unenviable task trying to fit everybody's preferences into a workable rota. To which they said 'as long as it works for me ' This week staff started changing their rota to suit them. It means that our clients lose an hour each. This was a reminder to me, people don't actually care about other people. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 8, 2023 19:16:33 GMT
To return briefly to the Corbyn issue discussed a few weeks back - ie his being banned from standing as Labour candidate in Islington North at the GE.
I am a little surprised - having checked the details - to discover that Nomination of Candidates now closes 19 working days before Polling Day - ie almost four weeks. It was formerly a much shorter period of circa two weeks.
It does occur to me that this effectively makes it far easier for Campaign Group candidates to come out in support of Corbyn early in the campaign without risk of deselection and with no possibility of Labour running alternative candidates. If 30 likely to be re-elected Labour MPs do that , it might create a crisis in Starmer's national campaign for which he is ill-prepared.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Mar 9, 2023 11:11:01 GMT
And do you really think that number of people would perform such a wanton wrecking act when the overriding desire of 99% of Labour people will be to get the Tories out?
Cult-like worship of Corbyn is very much an online thing, fortunately.
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 11:55:14 GMT
I am not a Corbynite and have no wish to see him return as Leader - though I would vote for him were I an elector in Islington North.
Any 'wrecking act' can reasonably be blamed on Starmer. Is it really so unlikely that people such as John Mcdonell, Dianne Abbot, Richard Burgon et al will come out openly in support of him 3 - 4 weeks before Polling Day at a point when all nominations have closed? Starmer ought to have considered the likely consequences of his action before blocking Corbyn's reselection. It would be an effective way for Campaign group members to extrxct revenge.
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 12:12:52 GMT
No, Graham, it cannot reasonably be blamed on Starmer. Instead, blame it on people like me, who have had in great sadness to point out the increasing number of ways why he can no longer expect to be able to stand as Labour. His refusal to take down that tweet which said that antisemitism had been exaggerated, and expressed not even the tiniest bit of solidarity with the UK Jewish community in general and Labour Jews in particular, was deeply upsetting to Labour's Jewish members and I for one will find it very hard to forgive him for it. That on top of the Mear One mural, his "hand of Israel" comment, and in general his implicit insistence that basically we are all lying or exaggerating when we have attempted to describe the level of antisemitism which we had to face as Jewish Labour members, not exclusively but particularly during his leadership of the Party. I was a big, a huge supporter of his leadership bid, it all ended in tears and if you want to focus on how rotten his treatment was in your eyes, fine but try & remember what we went through. It was not nice & I would not wish it on my worst enemy.
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 12:13:56 GMT
Or better still, blame Corbyn as well as me & those who are in the same boat as me.
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