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Post by mattbewilson on Mar 9, 2023 12:20:50 GMT
As I think has already been mentioned. Left wing Labour MPs didn't openly back Ken's bid for London mayor. I can't see 30 left wing labour MPs risking expulsion and to spend 5 years as independent MPs. Many of these MPs are dyed in the wool like Corbyn and aren't any more likely to do this as Corbyn is to stand himself imo
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 12:44:09 GMT
No, Graham, it cannot reasonably be blamed on Starmer. Instead, blame it on people like me, who have had in great sadness to point out the increasing number of ways why he can no longer expect to be able to stand as Labour. His refusal to take down that tweet which said that antisemitism had been exaggerated, and expressed not even the tiniest bit of solidarity with the UK Jewish community in general and Labour Jews in particular, was deeply upsetting to Labour's Jewish members and I for one will find it very hard to forgive him for it. That on top of the Mear One mural, his "hand of Israel" comment, and in general his implicit insistence that basically we are all lying or exaggerating when we have attempted to describe the level of antisemitism which we had to face as Jewish Labour members, not exclusively but particularly during his leadership of the Party. I was a big, a huge supporter of his leadership bid, it all ended in tears and if you want to focus on how rotten his treatment was in your eyes, fine but try & remember what we went through. It was not nice & I would not wish it on my worst enemy. But Corbyn does have a fair degree of support within the Jewish community - Jon Lansman et all come to mind. Personally I never voted for Corbyn in 2015 - nor when challenged in 2016. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 12:47:46 GMT
As I think has already been mentioned. Left wing Labour MPs didn't openly back Ken's bid for London mayor. I can't see 30 left wing labour MPs risking expulsion and to spend 5 years as independent MPs. Many of these MPs are dyed in the wool like Corbyn and aren't any more likely to do this as Corbyn is to stand himself imo Many are of an age that it is likely to be their last Parliament anyway and so have little to lose. Livingstone was eventually readmitted - as has Luciana Berger - despite having opposed officfial Labour candidates. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Mar 9, 2023 12:47:59 GMT
No, Graham, it cannot reasonably be blamed on Starmer. Instead, blame it on people like me, who have had in great sadness to point out the increasing number of ways why he can no longer expect to be able to stand as Labour. His refusal to take down that tweet which said that antisemitism had been exaggerated, and expressed not even the tiniest bit of solidarity with the UK Jewish community in general and Labour Jews in particular, was deeply upsetting to Labour's Jewish members and I for one will find it very hard to forgive him for it. That on top of the Mear One mural, his "hand of Israel" comment, and in general his implicit insistence that basically we are all lying or exaggerating when we have attempted to describe the level of antisemitism which we had to face as Jewish Labour members, not exclusively but particularly during his leadership of the Party. I was a big, a huge supporter of his leadership bid, it all ended in tears and if you want to focus on how rotten his treatment was in your eyes, fine but try & remember what we went through. It was not nice & I would not wish it on my worst enemy. Were you surprised? |
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Post by mattbewilson on Mar 9, 2023 13:24:04 GMT
As I think has already been mentioned. Left wing Labour MPs didn't openly back Ken's bid for London mayor. I can't see 30 left wing labour MPs risking expulsion and to spend 5 years as independent MPs. Many of these MPs are dyed in the wool like Corbyn and aren't any more likely to do this as Corbyn is to stand himself imo Many are of an age that it is likely to be their last Parliament anyway and so have little to lose. Livingstone was eventually readmitted - as has Luciana Berger - despite having opposed officfial Labour candidates. we're living in different times. KS looks like he's going to take a much tougher line on dissent on the left than Blair did. I can't see left wing Labour MPs being afforded the same benefit of the doubt that Change UK defectors have been |
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 14:31:24 GMT
Many are of an age that it is likely to be their last Parliament anyway and so have little to lose. Livingstone was eventually readmitted - as has Luciana Berger - despite having opposed officfial Labour candidates. we're living in different times. KS looks like he's going to take a much tougher line on dissent on the left than Blair did. I can't see left wing Labour MPs being afforded the same benefit of the doubt that Change UK defectors have been In which case it should come as no surprise when the Left respond in kind - and take advantage of opportunities to undermine him. Re-admitting Berger surely well reflects Starmer's double standards. |
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batman
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 14:44:34 GMT
No, Graham, it cannot reasonably be blamed on Starmer. Instead, blame it on people like me, who have had in great sadness to point out the increasing number of ways why he can no longer expect to be able to stand as Labour. His refusal to take down that tweet which said that antisemitism had been exaggerated, and expressed not even the tiniest bit of solidarity with the UK Jewish community in general and Labour Jews in particular, was deeply upsetting to Labour's Jewish members and I for one will find it very hard to forgive him for it. That on top of the Mear One mural, his "hand of Israel" comment, and in general his implicit insistence that basically we are all lying or exaggerating when we have attempted to describe the level of antisemitism which we had to face as Jewish Labour members, not exclusively but particularly during his leadership of the Party. I was a big, a huge supporter of his leadership bid, it all ended in tears and if you want to focus on how rotten his treatment was in your eyes, fine but try & remember what we went through. It was not nice & I would not wish it on my worst enemy. But Corbyn does have a fair degree of support within the Jewish community - Jon Lansman et all come to mind. Personally I never voted for Corbyn in 2015 - nor when challenged in 2016. I know Jon very well & have done since the late 70s. I don't think he can really be characterised as a Corbyn supporter any more, although he certainly was. He has been every bit as horrified as me by left antisemitism & its incidence within our party. Most recently I saw him at the AGM of the Jewish Labour Movement, at which he was not a dissident in any way & was greeted enthusiastically by some of its leading members. The JLM's attitude towards Corbyn is well known and is not a favourable one in any way whatsoever. |
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 14:45:55 GMT
There have been authoritative polls within the UK Jewish community, and the number who have positive opinions about Jeremy Corbyn is a very, very small minority indeed. JLM are far more representative of Labour Jews than JVL and has a far larger membership too.
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 14:48:32 GMT
No, Graham, it cannot reasonably be blamed on Starmer. Instead, blame it on people like me, who have had in great sadness to point out the increasing number of ways why he can no longer expect to be able to stand as Labour. His refusal to take down that tweet which said that antisemitism had been exaggerated, and expressed not even the tiniest bit of solidarity with the UK Jewish community in general and Labour Jews in particular, was deeply upsetting to Labour's Jewish members and I for one will find it very hard to forgive him for it. That on top of the Mear One mural, his "hand of Israel" comment, and in general his implicit insistence that basically we are all lying or exaggerating when we have attempted to describe the level of antisemitism which we had to face as Jewish Labour members, not exclusively but particularly during his leadership of the Party. I was a big, a huge supporter of his leadership bid, it all ended in tears and if you want to focus on how rotten his treatment was in your eyes, fine but try & remember what we went through. It was not nice & I would not wish it on my worst enemy. Were you surprised? yes, I never dreamt that I would suffer the degree of abuse that I did when I was in support of him. It was during 2018 that I ceased to do so, especially later on that year. You can call me foolish if you wish, and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you Arthur. |
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 15:11:04 GMT
yes, I never dreamt that I would suffer the degree of abuse that I did when I was in support of him. It was during 2018 that I ceased to do so, especially later on that year. You can call me foolish if you wish, and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you Arthur. I am very sorry that you had such experiences. I am not myself Jewish but joined JLM a few years ago to show solidarity with those fighting Ant-Semitism. |
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 9, 2023 15:34:39 GMT
yes, I never dreamt that I would suffer the degree of abuse that I did when I was in support of him. It was during 2018 that I ceased to do so, especially later on that year. You can call me foolish if you wish, and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you Arthur. I am very sorry that you had such experiences. I am not myself Jewish but joined JLM a few years ago to show solidarity with those fighting Ant-Semitism. I know! Those Middle Eastern ants get everywhere. |
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 9, 2023 15:42:40 GMT
My current choice of film for 'Carlton's Essential 1000 Great Films' is 'No Love For Johnnie' based of the novel of the same name by the former Labour MP here, Wilfrid Fienburgh 1951-1958, who died in a car accident in 1958 before publication or production of the film which is set in immediate post-war Labour Politics and touches upon many pertinent issues of the time. Fienburgh was a most interesting man and a Jewish member for this seat.
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Mar 9, 2023 16:08:27 GMT
yes, I never dreamt that I would suffer the degree of abuse that I did when I was in support of him. It was during 2018 that I ceased to do so, especially later on that year. You can call me foolish if you wish, and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you Arthur. I won't call you stupid, but maybe blinded by loyalty to your party and the factions in it that were closest to your views so that you didn't see what was sadly predictable. |
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 17:00:12 GMT
yes, I never dreamt that I would suffer the degree of abuse that I did when I was in support of him. It was during 2018 that I ceased to do so, especially later on that year. You can call me foolish if you wish, and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you Arthur. I am very sorry that you had such experiences. I am not myself Jewish but joined JLM a few years ago to show solidarity with those fighting Ant-Semitism. and yet you say that you would vote for Corbyn against an official Labour candidate? Thank you for your reply though. |
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 17:02:53 GMT
My current choice of film for 'Carlton's Essential 1000 Great Films' is 'No Love For Johnnie' based of the novel of the same name by the former Labour MP here, Wilfrid Fienburgh 1951-1958, who died in a car accident in 1958 before publication or production of the film which is set in immediate post-war Labour Politics and touches upon many pertinent issues of the time. Fienburgh was a most interesting man and a Jewish member for this seat. I had always assumed that Fienburgh was Jewish (because the name Fineberg, however spelt, is almost always a Jewish surname), but had never been able to find confirmation, so I am obliged to accept your word for it. His predecessor, Leslie Haden-Guest, was a convert to Judaism. There are currently two of these in the House, Andrew Percy (Brigg & Goole, C) and Charlotte Nichols (Warrington N, Lab). |
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 17:04:26 GMT
yes, I never dreamt that I would suffer the degree of abuse that I did when I was in support of him. It was during 2018 that I ceased to do so, especially later on that year. You can call me foolish if you wish, and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you Arthur. I won't call you stupid, but maybe blinded by loyalty to your party and the factions in it that were closest to your views so that you didn't see what was sadly predictable. maybe loyalty to my ideology rather than my party, although I do regard myself as a party loyalist in most respects. I'm not arguing. I learnt a lot very quickly. |
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 17:56:49 GMT
I am very sorry that you had such experiences. I am not myself Jewish but joined JLM a few years ago to show solidarity with those fighting Ant-Semitism. and yet you say that you would vote for Corbyn against an official Labour candidate? Thank you for your reply though. Yes - because whilst I have never viewed Corbyn as fit to be party leader, he does appear tohave been a very good constituency MP and his CLP want him to stand again. |
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 9, 2023 19:28:45 GMT
My current choice of film for 'Carlton's Essential 1000 Great Films' is 'No Love For Johnnie' based of the novel of the same name by the former Labour MP here, Wilfrid Fienburgh 1951-1958, who died in a car accident in 1958 before publication or production of the film which is set in immediate post-war Labour Politics and touches upon many pertinent issues of the time. Fienburgh was a most interesting man and a Jewish member for this seat. I had always assumed that Fienburgh was Jewish (because the name Fineberg, however spelt, is almost always a Jewish surname), but had never been able to find confirmation, so I am obliged to accept your word for it. His predecessor, Leslie Haden-Guest, was a convert to Judaism. There are currently two of these in the House, Andrew Percy (Brigg & Goole, C) and Charlotte Nichols (Warrington N, Lab). In January 1860 at Newport* assizes one Henrietta Sweedman 'an astrologer' was fined 2s 6d for assaulting Isaac Fienburgh. In 1855 the bankruptcy of Hyams Fienburgh, clothier based at Newport, was recorded at Bristol, and in an 1854 court case Abraham Bloom was charged with assaulting Caroline Fienburgh when she came to retrieve her husband from a card school.
EDIT: I keep finding more court cases. I'll have to revise further...
*Wales
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 9, 2023 20:21:04 GMT
My current choice of film for 'Carlton's Essential 1000 Great Films' is 'No Love For Johnnie' based of the novel of the same name by the former Labour MP here, Wilfrid Fienburgh 1951-1958, who died in a car accident in 1958 before publication or production of the film which is set in immediate post-war Labour Politics and touches upon many pertinent issues of the time. Fienburgh was a most interesting man and a Jewish member for this seat. Wilfred Fienburgh narrowly failed to unseat Gwilym Lloyd George at Pembroke in 1945 when he lost by just 168 votes in a straight fight with no Tory standing. Had there been a Tory , Fienburgh and Labour would have had a good majority - as indicated by the 1951 election result there when Labour won by over 9,000 when facing both Tory and Liberal opponents. It makes me wonder about fate - in that had he been elected MP for Pembroke in 1945 , it seems much less lkely that he would have fallen victim to the 1958 car accident. |
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Post by batman on Mar 9, 2023 20:37:14 GMT
And if he had survived, he would have been much likelier to remain in the Labour Party than Desmond Donnelly on a long-term basis. It took Labour a long time to recover from their defeat there in 1970.
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