timmullen1
Labour
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Post by timmullen1 on Feb 4, 2021 0:38:41 GMT
Any activity is technically 'voluntary' if you do it for free. Only a court could really define what actually counts as voluntary in relation to the Coronavirus Regulations, and I suspect they wouldn't take an overly lenient view, particularly if the activity in question was only of any real benefit to the person doing it. Most reasonable people would in my opinion take volunteering to be charitable activities and giving help to others. The spirit of the law is often also important, and there is a strong case to be made that political activity is outside the spirit of the law. The usual definition of voluntary work would be undertaking unpaid activities on behalf of a voluntary organisation such as a charity, relgious group, or political party. This would seem to be the kind of activity that is intended by the relevant line in the legislation. It would be a very odd legal ruling that decided voluntary work as defined in the legislation applies to volunteering for some kinds of organisations but not others when the legislation does not include any hint of such a stipulation.
Quite frankly it's ridiculous that my lodger can legally deliver pointless junk that people order off Amazon, but I can't deliver leaflets containing useful information, such as helplines. It would be even more ridiculous if the local elections went ahead with a ban on all of the usual forms of campaigning. Such elections certainly couldn't be described as free and fair, given the massive advantage it would give to the biggest two parties.
We have been told by West Midlands Regional Office that we would be perfectly fine delivering “leaflets containing useful information” of the type you mentioned, and we have been doing just that, whilst ensuring that the Labour Party is prominently displayed; we are also allowed some latitude in terms of campaigning, for example we have been able to deliver leaflets encouraging and informing residents how to formally object to a planning application that is of local concern, and in Stoke North a Labour councillor has been able to deliver leaflets in a targeted area encouraging residents to sign his online petition relating to the council failing to restock grit bins.
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Post by lackeroftalent on Feb 4, 2021 0:47:04 GMT
The usual definition of voluntary work would be undertaking unpaid activities on behalf of a voluntary organisation such as a charity, relgious group, or political party. This would seem to be the kind of activity that is intended by the relevant line in the legislation. It would be a very odd legal ruling that decided voluntary work as defined in the legislation applies to volunteering for some kinds of organisations but not others when the legislation does not include any hint of such a stipulation.
Quite frankly it's ridiculous that my lodger can legally deliver pointless junk that people order off Amazon, but I can't deliver leaflets containing useful information, such as helplines. It would be even more ridiculous if the local elections went ahead with a ban on all of the usual forms of campaigning. Such elections certainly couldn't be described as free and fair, given the massive advantage it would give to the biggest two parties.
We have been told by West Midlands Regional Office that we would be perfectly fine delivering “leaflets containing useful information” of the type you mentioned, and we have been doing just that, whilst ensuring that the Labour Party is prominently displayed; we are also allowed some latitude in terms of campaigning, for example we have been able to deliver leaflets encouraging and informing residents how to formally object to a planning application that is of local concern, and in Stoke North a Labour councillor has been able to deliver leaflets in a targeted area encouraging residents to sign his online petition relating to the council failing to restock grit bins. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55909981
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Feb 4, 2021 1:03:13 GMT
We have been told by West Midlands Regional Office that we would be perfectly fine delivering “leaflets containing useful information” of the type you mentioned, and we have been doing just that, whilst ensuring that the Labour Party is prominently displayed; we are also allowed some latitude in terms of campaigning, for example we have been able to deliver leaflets encouraging and informing residents how to formally object to a planning application that is of local concern, and in Stoke North a Labour councillor has been able to deliver leaflets in a targeted area encouraging residents to sign his online petition relating to the council failing to restock grit bins. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55909981Different police forces, different interpretations? I know the Stoke North councillor got clearance from his area commander as his daughter is a serving officer elsewhere in Staffordshire and he was obviously keen to avoid breaching the guidelines as “Copper’s Councillor dad fined for breach of Covid rules” is the kind of headline the Editor of The Sentinel dreams about.
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,042
Member is Online
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Post by ilerda on Feb 4, 2021 9:16:56 GMT
I would suggest that the primary purpose of a political party is not to be a voluntary organisation, and its actions are not of the kind that would normally be classified as for the benefit of others. What may technically be within the law (depending on how strictly one interprets is) does not necessarily fit within the spirit of the rules.
Nobody would say that delivering party political leaflets is a necessary activity. Doing you job as a delivery driver definitely is.
And the idea that this is partisan is ridiculous. The Conservative Party is perfectly able to break the (spirit of the) rules and get its activists out delivering leaflets if it wanted to. But it has taken a cautious approach and recognised that it is not the responsible thing to do at this moment in time.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 4, 2021 9:47:57 GMT
Any activity is technically 'voluntary' if you do it for free. Only a court could really define what actually counts as voluntary in relation to the Coronavirus Regulations, and I suspect they wouldn't take an overly lenient view, particularly if the activity in question was only of any real benefit to the person doing it. Most reasonable people would in my opinion take volunteering to be charitable activities and giving help to others. The spirit of the law is often also important, and there is a strong case to be made that political activity is outside the spirit of the law. The usual definition of voluntary work would be undertaking unpaid activities on behalf of a voluntary organisation such as a charity, relgious group, or political party. This would seem to be the kind of activity that is intended by the relevant line in the legislation. It would be a very odd legal ruling that decided voluntary work as defined in the legislation applies to volunteering for some kinds of organisations but not others when the legislation does not include any hint of such a stipulation.
Quite frankly it's ridiculous that my lodger can legally deliver pointless junk that people order off Amazon, but I can't deliver leaflets containing useful information, such as helplines. It would be even more ridiculous if the local elections went ahead with a ban on all of the usual forms of campaigning. Such elections certainly couldn't be described as free and fair, given the massive advantage it would give to the biggest two parties.
'It's ridiculous that people can receive stuff they actually want, have ordered and paid for but not receive unsolicited crap that they are going to throw straight in the bin'
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Post by hullenedge on Feb 4, 2021 10:34:04 GMT
Marilyn Greenwood (Lib Dem, Greetland & Stainland, Calderdale MBC) has sadly died. A lovely lady who will be much missed.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,710
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 4, 2021 10:34:37 GMT
Quite frankly it's ridiculous that my lodger can legally deliver pointless junk that people order off Amazon, but I can't deliver leaflets containing useful information, such as helplines. It would be even more ridiculous if the local elections went ahead with a ban on all of the usual forms of campaigning. Such elections certainly couldn't be described as free and fair, given the massive advantage it would give to the biggest two parties.
Maybe I should re-instate the leaflet masthead "Entirely delivered by volunteers" which I vetoed on the grounds that of course we bloddy do, we don't use prisoners or conscripts.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 4, 2021 10:49:11 GMT
That reminds me - in 2010 I encountered voters who had read the term "election expenses" and, it being the time of the expenses scandal, assumed that it meant the political parties were claiming the costs of their election campaign from the taxpayer.
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 4, 2021 11:35:57 GMT
Maybe I should re-instate the leaflet masthead "Entirely delivered by volunteers" which I vetoed on the grounds that of course we bloddy do, we don't use prisoners or conscripts. Are any delivered by your volunteers' children under familial conscription?
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Feb 4, 2021 12:24:16 GMT
Quite frankly it's ridiculous that my lodger can legally deliver pointless junk that people order off Amazon, but I can't deliver leaflets containing useful information, such as helplines. It would be even more ridiculous if the local elections went ahead with a ban on all of the usual forms of campaigning. Such elections certainly couldn't be described as free and fair, given the massive advantage it would give to the biggest two parties.
Maybe I should re-instate the leaflet masthead "Entirely delivered by volunteers" which I vetoed on the grounds that of course we bloddy do, we don't use prisoners or conscripts. You don’t? I’ve always thought the line between volunteers and conscripts to be very hazy...😉
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,710
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 4, 2021 12:51:33 GMT
That reminds me - in 2010 I encountered voters who had read the term "election expenses" and, it being the time of the expenses scandal, assumed that it meant the political parties were claiming the costs of their election campaign from the taxpayer. I've encountered *candidates* who thought that, and expected a payment from the election office.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 4, 2021 13:47:15 GMT
That reminds me - in 2010 I encountered voters who had read the term "election expenses" and, it being the time of the expenses scandal, assumed that it meant the political parties were claiming the costs of their election campaign from the taxpayer. I've encountered *candidates* who thought that, and expected a payment from the election office. And I met a candidate who justified the lack of any election literature on the grounds that he didn't want to cost the council money. He genuinely thought that the return of election expenses meant that his election expenses would be returned and wouldn't accept my assurances that wasn't the case.Maybe the forms should be renamed Statement of Election Expenditure ?
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Post by gwynthegriff on Feb 4, 2021 13:49:44 GMT
Gwyn - I thought you had gone into purdah?! Er, no. Though by purdah do you mean a voluntary break from here or the ridiculous nonsense local authority officers (and some members) use to justify doing nothing for a few weeks?
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pl
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,568
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Post by pl on Feb 4, 2021 14:02:35 GMT
Gwyn - I thought you had gone into purdah?! Er, no. Though by purdah do you mean a voluntary break from here or the ridiculous nonsense local authority officers ( and some members) use to justify doing nothing for a few weeks? I once had a group of councillors who insisted that we couldn't put out party political election leaflets during purdah. I kid ye not..... That campaign was a long one... And save me from Mayors who insist they can't leaflet or canvass (even for themselves) due to being impartial as Mayor...
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Feb 4, 2021 14:59:05 GMT
Gwyn - I thought you had gone into purdah?! Er, no. Though by purdah do you mean a voluntary break from here or the ridiculous nonsense local authority officers (and some members) use to justify doing nothing for a few weeks? In many cases, nobody notices the difference.
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Post by greenchristian on Feb 4, 2021 15:05:10 GMT
I would suggest that the primary purpose of a political party is not to be a voluntary organisation, and its actions are not of the kind that would normally be classified as for the benefit of others. Just because you think your party is there solely for the benefit of its members, rather than being an organisation that's trying to make things better for everyone that's certainly not true for every party. People who get into politics for their own benefit, rather than for the benefit of others, are precisely the kind of people who should not be given political power. And it's rather disappointing to see you suggest that your own party is exactly that.
Surely whether delivery drivers are necessary activities depends on what they're delivering. The vast majority of things ordered off Amazon are not necessary purchases by any reasonable definition of the term. The fact that somebody is getting paid to do something does not make that activity necessary.
And yet we have some examples of Conservative councillors boasting that parties who rely on volunteers to deliver can't get their material delivered, but richer parties with fewer volunteers like theirs can still deliver by royal mail (who, let's not forget, deliver far more actual junk mail than they deliver anything else). The Conservative Party's interpretation of the law (which is completely opposite to the legal advice my party obtained) is that the low-risk activity of delivering things should be banned if done by certain organisations but not if done by others. And the effect of that interpretation is clearly going to have a partisan effect, in biasing voters towards the two parties that are given large amounts of media time and larger sources of income and against parties which have traditionally focused on engaging with the electorate in their local area.
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ilerda
Conservative
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Member is Online
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Post by ilerda on Feb 4, 2021 20:42:56 GMT
Childish party political caricatures are unnecessary and unbecoming. I’m simply saying that “making things better” though partisan politics and elections is far removed from actual charitable work that offers tangible help on a daily basis.
I wouldn’t expect charities to be going door to door, or campaign groups, or political parties. Especially given that parties aren’t even registered charities. I don’t doubt the selfless motives of the people involved or their passion for helping people. But the truth is these activities aren’t necessary and it is up to us all to be responsible in our actions.
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carlton43
Non-Aligned
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 4, 2021 23:53:29 GMT
I would suggest that the primary purpose of a political party is not to be a voluntary organisation, and its actions are not of the kind that would normally be classified as for the benefit of others. Just because you think your party is there solely for the benefit of its members, rather than being an organisation that's trying to make things better for everyone that's certainly not true for every party. People who get into politics for their own benefit, rather than for the benefit of others, are precisely the kind of people who should not be given political power. And it's rather disappointing to see you suggest that your own party is exactly that.
Surely whether delivery drivers are necessary activities depends on what they're delivering. The vast majority of things ordered off Amazon are not necessary purchases by any reasonable definition of the term. The fact that somebody is getting paid to do something does not make that activity necessary.
And yet we have some examples of Conservative councillors boasting that parties who rely on volunteers to deliver can't get their material delivered, but richer parties with fewer volunteers like theirs can still deliver by royal mail (who, let's not forget, deliver far more actual junk mail than they deliver anything else). The Conservative Party's interpretation of the law (which is completely opposite to the legal advice my party obtained) is that the low-risk activity of delivering things should be banned if done by certain organisations but not if done by others. And the effect of that interpretation is clearly going to have a partisan effect, in biasing voters towards the two parties that are given large amounts of media time and larger sources of income and against parties which have traditionally focused on engaging with the electorate in their local area. Even for You (!!!!!!!!!!!) That is a way beyond barmy post of the first order. If 90% of the electorate never ever saw another piece of party political literature of any sort for the rest of their lives they would be delighted if polled to affirm that to be the case. I agree with them. If my entirely necessary and very useful purchases from Amazon are delayed or hindered by your sort of piffling idiocy there will be hell to pay from the sensible majority ................. ........................... Which does not include you!
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Post by timrollpickering on Feb 5, 2021 1:26:06 GMT
Maybe soon some on Handforth Parish Council?
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 14,625
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Post by john07 on Feb 5, 2021 3:14:22 GMT
If 90% of the electorate never ever saw another piece of party political literature of any sort for the rest of their lives they would be delighted if polled to affirm that to be the case. I agree with them. If my entirely necessary and very useful purchases from Amazon are delayed or hindered by your sort of piffling idiocy there will be hell to pay from the sensible majority! Do Amazon use the Royal Mail anymore? I thought they had set up their own delivery service? So what the hell has Amazon got to do with delivery of election material?
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