Totally turned off by Politicians

[john07]

Sept 2, 2019 22:47:09 GMT fourringcircus said:

Sept 2, 2019 22:05:20 GMT gwynthegriff said:

Senior SNP figure says "fuck'em" to British Forces on postings, diplomats, charity workers ...

Where do you see a senior SNP figure?

Did you miss the quip about pushing bed-ridden people to polling stations?

*Stop Press*

Irony as LibDem doesn't see satire!

Were you being 'satirical' when you advocated banning postal votes?

Or did you adopt the 'satire card' when the total cretinous absurdity of the position you had taken was challenged?

[fourringcircus]

Sept 3, 2019 20:28:04 GMT john07 said:

Were you being 'satirical' when you advocated banning postal votes?

Or did you adopt the 'satire card' when the total cretinous absurdity of the position you had taken was challenged?

I see what you did there!  Duplicity most certainly isn't a card I normally play.  I suspect you may be judging me by your own standards!

However, there was a bit of tongue in cheek with my post.  I actually believe that getting a postal vote should carry the same element of difficulty as getting out of jury service.  There will always be exceptions, but as a general rule, they should not be the regarded as the easy norm.

[bjornhattan]

Sept 3, 2019 22:10:58 GMT @boogieeck said:

I dont like postal votes or proxies. I would have early voting at the Council HQ, mobile polling teams touring Old Peoples Homes and voting at overseas consulates and embassies. But no postals and no proxies. Show some form of ID to vote. Debit card, Tesco Clubcard, junk mail addressed to you, anything, the only objective is to make large scale fraud impossible.

I would have weekend voting, 9-9 Saturday, 9-5 Sunday and Prime Time counts on Sunday evening.

But this would not address the malaise in our politicians or our electorate.

What would you do if someone lived in a fairly isolated constituency, but worked or studied in London?

[Izzyeviel]

'Voting fraud isn't a problem so photo id is stupid'- people who actually study it for a living.

[Merseymike]

Sept 3, 2019 22:17:19 GMT @boogieeck said:

I would not do anything. But they could. They could move their vote to where they actually live. They could vote early when they were home. They could realise that voting is important enough to merit a bit of effort. Or it isn't. Their choice.

Thankfully the direction is towards easier voting. Inevitably electronic voting is the future.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

The UK doesn't stop being a Parliamentary democracy just because there's been a referendum. If the Brexiteers had understood that from the start, they wouldn't be in this pickle.

[Izzyeviel]

Sept 4, 2019 16:04:27 GMT @boogieeck said:

That's great David. The UK doesn't stop being a parliamentary democracy just because MPs vote to have a referendum, promise to abide by it, vote to invoke A50. The UK does not stop being a parliamentary democracy just because it votes to criminalize abortion, or homosexuality, or reinstate capital punishment, or prohibit mixed race marriage.

It just stops being one worthy of any respect or worthy of retaining.

you can whine all you want, but what was promised in the advert doesn't match up with the small print. 

We could've left in March but your muckers started to actually believe the nonsense about 'no-deal is better than a bad deal' and here we are.

Very few people voted for no-deal way back in 2016. Maybe your side shouldn't keep electing idiots to be PM?

[middleenglander]

It has been 3½ months since I last posted on this (or any such) site when I started the current thread entitled "Totally turned off by Politicians". I have been lurking on the Vote UK Forum quite a bit but have now decided to "dip my toe in the waters" again, although still on a limited basis.

There was much talk during the summer about an element of Edmund Burke's speech in 1774 to the electors of Bristol, namely "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion". I have always regarded such a 250 year old concept to be somewhat questionable given it originated well before universal suffrage, education for all, information readily available initially in books and now at a click as well as the recent introduction of referenda(ums),

I was consequently somewhat amused when Jo Johnson resigned from the Cabinet and announced he was not standing at the forthcoming election. It was reported that his wife had said he had to choose between her and his brother Boris, a concept far away from Burke's principle. I find it gratifying that so many who thought they could flout the views of the electorate now find they are no longer MPs with their judgement found to be wanting.

At the same time we have had a main opposition that has acted very much like the student's union of my day in the 1960's. At least, most of my contemporaries have become more worldly-wise and realise simple sloganising is no answer to complex, interacting problems. Irrespective of the merits of individual policies, there is highly likely to be insufficient skills to manage at the same time the nationalisation of several industries, substantial changes to the taxation of individuals and companies as well as increased expenditure on benefits and public services.

There would then be the impact of unintended consequences. A reputed additional £58bn for WAPSI was announced just a couple of days after the launch of the Labour Manifesto. My wife was one of the last to receive her state pension at 60 but we had both been aware of the changes for many years before whilst I understand the High Court has already ruled on the issue. If however this money were to be paid, I would relish a claim for approaching £35k for myself in that I had been promised the retirement age for men and women was to be equalised!!

Almost the first comment when Jo Swinson was elected as leader of the Liberal Democrat was that she would ignore the result of a second in / out EU referendum if it was again leave. I am therefore delighted that not only did she lose her seat but the party went backwards in terms of seats.

I recall the old story about Burton Tailoring (who were then struggling) and Marks & Spencer (who were then a high street star). The Burton board sent a senior manager to M & S who reported that they were closed from 9.00 to 9.30 am on Wednesdays for staff training. The Burton board misinterpreted this by thinking part of the reason for M & S's success was because of the delayed opening time rather than the emphasis on staff training. I think this is particularly relevant to the selection of party leaders which ought to be based on the best person for the job in hand, rather than on gender or ethnicity.

Much has been made of the difference between the education levels of leavers / Conservatives and remainers / Labour however you try to cut it. In my day only around 5% of the population went to University compared to approaching 50% today. It is therefore unsurprising that the apparent education attainment of the older population is said to be lower that the younger generation, purely because of this one fact. However, it does not mean the older generation are less intelligent let alone having greater wisdom as they have seen much of the recent "flights of fancy" before. This is just one example where much of current (political) analysis is regretfully lacking.

There is nevertheless a major issue with higher education. For students to come out with say £50k debt at the age of 21 or so is wrong when only a small proportion of individuals is likely to paid the debt off (at exorbitant interest rates) and this distorts more than just personal finances. I have always regarded this policy to be wrong and a re-examination of the whole concept of tertiary education is required.

A final thought. The relationship between local council by-elections and a General Election is far from straight forward. Not only is the turnout double that of local council elections but by-election contests are much more affected by personalities, local issues and recent histories. However, the most noticeable characteristic of local council by-elections in the months leading up to the General Election was the poor showing of Labour candidates in the vast majority of contests. It will be interesting to watch what happens in the coming months and years.

[andrew111]

Dec 16, 2019 12:21:18 GMT middleenglander said:

It has been 3½ months since I last posted on this (or any such) site when I started the current thread entitled "Totally turned off by Politicians". I have been lurking on the Vote UK Forum quite a bit but have now decided to "dip my toe in the waters" again, although still on a limited basis.

There was much talk during the summer about an element of Edmund Burke's speech in 1774 to the electors of Bristol, namely "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion". I have always regarded such a 250 year old concept to be somewhat questionable given it originated well before universal suffrage, education for all, information readily available initially in books and now at a click as well as the recent introduction of referenda(ums),

I was consequently somewhat amused when Jo Johnson resigned from the Cabinet and announced he was not standing at the forthcoming election. It was reported that his wife had said he had to choose between her and his brother Boris, a concept far away from Burke's principle. I find it gratifying that so many who thought they could flout the views of the electorate now find they are no longer MPs with their judgement found to be wanting.

At the same time we have had a main opposition that has acted very much like the student's union of my day in the 1960's. At least, most of my contemporaries have become more worldly-wise and realise simple sloganising is no answer to complex, interacting problems. Irrespective of the merits of individual policies, there is highly likely to be insufficient skills to manage at the same time the nationalisation of several industries, substantial changes to the taxation of individuals and companies as well as increased expenditure on benefits and public services.

There would then be the impact of unintended consequences. A reputed additional £58bn for WAPSI was announced just a couple of days after the launch of the Labour Manifesto. My wife was one of the last to receive her state pension at 60 but we had both been aware of the changes for many years before whilst I understand the High Court has already ruled on the issue. If however this money were to be paid, I would relish a claim for approaching £35k for myself in that I had been promised the retirement age for men and women was to be equalised!!

Almost the first comment when Jo Swinson was elected as leader of the Liberal Democrat was that she would ignore the result of a second in / out EU referendum if it was again leave. I am therefore delighted that not only did she lose her seat but the party went backwards in terms of seats.

I recall the old story about Burton Tailoring (who were then struggling) and Marks & Spencer (who were then a high street star). The Burton board sent a senior manager to M & S who reported that they were closed from 9.00 to 9.30 am on Wednesdays for staff training. The Burton board misinterpreted this by thinking part of the reason for M & S's success was because of the delayed opening time rather than the emphasis on staff training. I think this is particularly relevant to the selection of party leaders which ought to be based on the best person for the job in hand, rather than on gender or ethnicity.

Much has been made of the difference between the education levels of leavers / Conservatives and remainers / Labour however you try to cut it. In my day only around 5% of the population went to University compared to approaching 50% today. It is therefore unsurprising that the apparent education attainment of the older population is said to be lower that the younger generation, purely because of this one fact. However, it does not mean the older generation are less intelligent let alone having greater wisdom as they have seen much of the recent "flights of fancy" before. This is just one example where much of current (political) analysis is regretfully lacking.

There is nevertheless a major issue with higher education. For students to come out with say £50k debt at the age of 21 or so is wrong when only a small proportion of individuals is likely to paid the debt off (at exorbitant interest rates) and this distorts more than just personal finances. I have always regarded this policy to be wrong and a re-examination of the whole concept of tertiary education is required.

A final thought. The relationship between local council by-elections and a General Election is far from straight forward. Not only is the turnout double that of local council elections but by-election contests are much more affected by personalities, local issues and recent histories. However, the most noticeable characteristic of local council by-elections in the months leading up to the General Election was the poor showing of Labour candidates in the vast majority of contests. It will be interesting to watch what happens in the coming months and years.

Well, an interesting essay, but it does illustrate how fake news takes hold and then shapes the agenda. Jo Swinson did not say she would ignore the result of another referendum if it was Leave. In response to the somewhat ambiguous question "would you respect the result?" She replied somewhat ambiguously "I would not change my mind about Europe" 2 days later on Sophie Ridge she made it clear that she would not seek to block a Leave result in Parliament. I posted the Ridge interview several times on here, but people believe what they want to believe.

Of course the Lib Dems should by rights be celebrating an increase in the number of MPs from 48 to around 70.

On university education and Remain voting, there is quite solid evidence that the effect exists in every generation, but of course as you say the participation rate was much lower for today's pensioners. Like you I don't think this has anything to do with intelligence however. University has always inculcated a socially liberal and internationalist outlook. Graduates continue to exist in this social bubble throughout their lives. In this world view the Nation State is seen as an outmoded concept. I do agree that the lack of connection between the Leave and Remain tribes is a bad thing.

I agree with you on student fees and debt. A graduate tax (perhaps at 2 or 3%) would be a much better idea. That would reflect the benefit graduates get in average salary but the rest of the cost would come from general taxation reflecting the benefit of high level training in Stem subjects and medicine to the country.

[middleenglander]

Dec 18, 2019 21:34:35 GMT andrew111 said:

Well, an interesting essay, but it does illustrate how fake news takes hold and then shapes the agenda. Jo Swinson did not say she would ignore the result of another referendum if it was Leave. In response to the somewhat ambiguous question "would you respect the result?" She replied somewhat ambiguously "I would not change my mind about Europe" 2 days later on Sophie Ridge she made it clear that she would not seek to block a Leave result in Parliament. I posted the Ridge interview several times on here, but people believe what they want to believe.

Of course the Lib Dems should by rights be celebrating an increase in the number of MPs from 48 to around 70.

On university education and Remain voting, there is quite solid evidence that the effect exists in every generation, but of course as you say the participation rate was much lower for today's pensioners. Like you I don't think this has anything to do with intelligence however. University has always inculcated a socially liberal and internationalist outlook. Graduates continue to exist in this social bubble throughout their lives. In this world view the Nation State is seen as an outmoded concept. I do agree that the lack of connection between the Leave and Remain tribes is a bad thing.

I agree with you on student fees and debt. A graduate tax (perhaps at 2 or 3%) would be a much better idea. That would reflect the benefit graduates get in average salary but the rest of the cost would come from general taxation reflecting the benefit of high level training in Stem subjects and medicine to the country.

* On her election to the leadership of the Liberal Democrats, Swinson undertook many TV, radio and press interviews. I noted at the time what I believe she said whilst recognising she did row back on her initial statements a day or two later.
* I do not know from where you get your figures of either 48 (in 2017?) or 70 (in 2019?) Liberal Democrat MPs by rights.
* I do not recognise amongst my peers a belief that the Nation State is an outmoded concept.
* A graduate tax is more easily advocated than implemented whilst it does not address deep seated issues within tertiary education.

[greenchristian]

Dec 18, 2019 23:35:54 GMT middleenglander said:

Dec 18, 2019 21:34:35 GMT andrew111 said:

Well, an interesting essay, but it does illustrate how fake news takes hold and then shapes the agenda. Jo Swinson did not say she would ignore the result of another referendum if it was Leave. In response to the somewhat ambiguous question "would you respect the result?" She replied somewhat ambiguously "I would not change my mind about Europe" 2 days later on Sophie Ridge she made it clear that she would not seek to block a Leave result in Parliament. I posted the Ridge interview several times on here, but people believe what they want to believe.

Of course the Lib Dems should by rights be celebrating an increase in the number of MPs from 48 to around 70.

On university education and Remain voting, there is quite solid evidence that the effect exists in every generation, but of course as you say the participation rate was much lower for today's pensioners. Like you I don't think this has anything to do with intelligence however. University has always inculcated a socially liberal and internationalist outlook. Graduates continue to exist in this social bubble throughout their lives. In this world view the Nation State is seen as an outmoded concept. I do agree that the lack of connection between the Leave and Remain tribes is a bad thing.

I agree with you on student fees and debt. A graduate tax (perhaps at 2 or 3%) would be a much better idea. That would reflect the benefit graduates get in average salary but the rest of the cost would come from general taxation reflecting the benefit of high level training in Stem subjects and medicine to the country.

* On her election to the leadership of the Liberal Democrats, Swinson undertook many TV, radio and press interviews. I noted at the time what I believe she said whilst recognising she did row back on her initial statements a day or two later.
* I do not know from where you get your figures of either 48 (in 2017?) or 70 (in 2019?) Liberal Democrat MPs by rights.
* I do not recognise amongst my peers a belief that the Nation State is an outmoded concept.
* A graduate tax is more easily advocated than implemented whilst it does not address deep seated issues within tertiary education.

Andrew's referring to what the Lib Dems would have got under a proportional system (though the 2019 figure should be 75, rather than 70).

Welcome back, by the way. You have been much missed.

[middleenglander]

Dec 21, 2019 16:40:52 GMT greenchristian said:

Dec 18, 2019 23:35:54 GMT middleenglander said:

* On her election to the leadership of the Liberal Democrats, Swinson undertook many TV, radio and press interviews. I noted at the time what I believe she said whilst recognising she did row back on her initial statements a day or two later.
* I do not know from where you get your figures of either 48 (in 2017?) or 70 (in 2019?) Liberal Democrat MPs by rights.
* I do not recognise amongst my peers a belief that the Nation State is an outmoded concept.
* A graduate tax is more easily advocated than implemented whilst it does not address deep seated issues within tertiary education.

Andrew's referring to what the Lib Dems would have got under a proportional system (though the 2019 figure should be 75, rather than 70).

Welcome back, by the way. You have been much missed.

A variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would almost undoubtedly apply. If you have a different system the results will not be the same.

[Chris from Brum]

Dec 21, 2019 16:47:44 GMT middleenglander said:

Dec 21, 2019 16:40:52 GMT greenchristian said:

Andrew's referring to what the Lib Dems would have got under a proportional system (though the 2019 figure should be 75, rather than 70).

Welcome back, by the way. You have been much missed.

A variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would almost undoubtedly apply. If you have a different system the results will not be the same.

True, but we currently have no better evidence than the votes actually cast.

[mboy]

Not sure of the best place to post this, but maybe here:

[andrew111]

Dec 21, 2019 16:47:44 GMT middleenglander said:

Dec 21, 2019 16:40:52 GMT greenchristian said:

Andrew's referring to what the Lib Dems would have got under a proportional system (though the 2019 figure should be 75, rather than 70).

Welcome back, by the way. You have been much missed.

A variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would almost undoubtedly apply. If you have a different system the results will not be the same.

Given the FPTP squeeze on Lib Dem votes in the large majority of constituencies, a higher final Lib Dem vote that 11.5% would be more likely than a lower one.

[thirdchill]

Dec 23, 2019 9:40:39 GMT andrew111 said:

Dec 21, 2019 16:47:44 GMT middleenglander said:

A variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would almost undoubtedly apply. If you have a different system the results will not be the same.

Given the FPTP squeeze on Lib Dem votes in the large majority of constituencies, a higher final Lib Dem vote that 11.5% would be more likely than a lower one.

Probably true though the lib dem vote overall may well be more spread out than it is now. Places where the lib dems squeezed other parties (St Albans, Esher and Walton) could well see a decrease in those places under PR.