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Post by Merseymike on Aug 10, 2022 20:56:48 GMT
Random members should not be kicked to try to please and appease an hostile press. It won't serve any purpose. very few of them are "random". Instances of people being unjustly expelled are very few & far between. Not non-existent, but rare. Mostly they've broken the party rules & had it coming. The "party rules" are what would prevent me from voting Labour again, along with its dismal lack of distinct policies and dreadful leadership.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Aug 11, 2022 11:42:40 GMT
As a lawyer KS was pretty good on civil liberties. As leader the decision to abstain on spy cops and overseas suggest he struggles to balance his own principles with what the focus groups say I'm not keen on his positions on civil liberties, but I struggle to believe that focus groups were the deciding factor in that decision, rather than his experiences and connections made as DPP.
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 11, 2022 13:31:33 GMT
the AWL was de facto proscribed before. Several people including some friends of mine were expelled in Corbyn's time purely for membership of it. One was a CLP Chair at the time. The latest proscriptions have led to some expulsions, contrary to what Matt has said. They include Ken Loach (whose expulsion I think was justified) and Pamela Fitzpatrick, the 2019 candidate for Harrow East (whose expulsion I think was extremely harsh) I could be wrong but I believe both Ken and Pamela were expelled after the first round of proscriptions.
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 11, 2022 13:33:31 GMT
As a lawyer KS was pretty good on civil liberties. As leader the decision to abstain on spy cops and overseas suggest he struggles to balance his own principles with what the focus groups say I'm not keen on his positions on civil liberties, but I struggle to believe that focus groups were the deciding factor in that decision, rather than his experiences and connections made as DPP. perhaps I was being a bit tongue in cheek. But I think it's likely that the decision to abstain was a political one rather than KS wearing his legal hat
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 11, 2022 13:40:51 GMT
Random members should not be kicked to try to please and appease an hostile press. It won't serve any purpose. very few of them are "random". Instances of people being unjustly expelled are very few & far between. Not non-existent, but rare. Mostly they've broken the party rules & had it coming. maybe I come from a perspective where I've too broken party rules and I'm not looking to get expelled but just don't understand the application of the rules. I seem to have the good fortune of just never having heard of some of the groups proscribed
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Post by batman on Aug 11, 2022 14:32:55 GMT
the AWL was de facto proscribed before. Several people including some friends of mine were expelled in Corbyn's time purely for membership of it. One was a CLP Chair at the time. The latest proscriptions have led to some expulsions, contrary to what Matt has said. They include Ken Loach (whose expulsion I think was justified) and Pamela Fitzpatrick, the 2019 candidate for Harrow East (whose expulsion I think was extremely harsh) I could be wrong but I believe both Ken and Pamela were expelled after the first round of proscriptions. Oh I see what you mean. I was thinking of all the recent, post-Starmer's leadership, proscriptions as one tranche. If you just mean the last NEC decision, then you're probably right. I know some AWL people quite well and I haven't heard of further expulsions yet.
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Post by syorkssocialist on Aug 11, 2022 15:37:17 GMT
North Lanarkshire, Airdrie South ward Cllr Michael Coyle, SNP -> Scottish Labour
Labour back in control of the council as a result. SNP administration lasted two months and ended in disgrace.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Aug 11, 2022 16:08:19 GMT
I'm not keen on his positions on civil liberties, but I struggle to believe that focus groups were the deciding factor in that decision, rather than his experiences and connections made as DPP. perhaps I was being a bit tongue in cheek. But I think it's likely that the decision to abstain was a political one rather than KS wearing his legal hat Not sure. I think some in the security services felt that regardless of the specifics of the bill, they did need some legal protections for undercover operations. You can question whether that is an argument that stands up, but I think it's the sort of argument that is likely to be particularly persuasive with former DPPs and the like. I also think if it was a political decision they'd have been more likely to vote in favour, whereas the approach was to push amendments as usual but then to back down once they were rejected.
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 11, 2022 16:23:27 GMT
perhaps I was being a bit tongue in cheek. But I think it's likely that the decision to abstain was a political one rather than KS wearing his legal hat Not sure. I think some in the security services felt that regardless of the specifics of the bill, they did need some legal protections for undercover operations. You can question whether that is an argument that stands up, but I think it's the sort of argument that is likely to be particularly persuasive with former DPPs and the like. I also think if it was a political decision they'd have been more likely to vote in favour, whereas the approach was to push amendments as usual but then to back down once they were rejected. had labour voted for it there'd have been a bigger rebellion which would have been politically painful
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Post by La Fontaine on Aug 11, 2022 18:35:10 GMT
Just for the record, I suppose, my old friend and colleague Vic Connaughton was expelled by Labour for a Corbyn-related offence some time ago and I have heard nothing further recently. He was at the time President (ie chair) of Blaydon CLP, a position I myself held for two separate periods. I don't know his precise offence as I'm semi-detached nowadays and we think it best to avoid politics at our regular golf encounters.
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Post by carolus on Aug 11, 2022 19:52:33 GMT
North Lanarkshire, Airdrie South ward Cllr Michael Coyle, SNP -> Scottish Labour Labour back in control of the council as a result. SNP administration lasted two months and ended in disgrace. What happened?
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Post by carolus on Aug 11, 2022 20:01:50 GMT
Moray, Heldon & Laich. James Allan, Scottish Conservative and Unionist to Conservative - Non Aligned. I assume from his description this won't threaten the Conservative minority administration, but they are now down to nine of twenty-six councillors (from eleven in May).
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Post by Rutlander on Aug 11, 2022 20:11:27 GMT
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Post by aargauer on Aug 11, 2022 20:12:56 GMT
Just for the record, I suppose, my old friend and colleague Vic Connaughton was expelled by Labour for a Corbyn-related offence some time ago and I have heard nothing further recently. He was at the time President (ie chair) of Blaydon CLP, a position I myself held for two separate periods. I don't know his precise offence as I'm semi-detached nowadays and we think it best to avoid politics at our regular golf encounters. Golf club - Classic NE senior labour!
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 12, 2022 10:01:00 GMT
Newry, Morse and Down District Council
Henry Reilly, Slieve Gullion Ward - Independent Unionist to DUP
Alan Lewis, Slieve Cloob Ward - UUP to DUP
Cllr Reilly now adds the DUP to his previous membership of the UUP, UKIP and TUV.
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Post by syorkssocialist on Aug 12, 2022 10:40:50 GMT
North Lanarkshire, Airdrie South ward Cllr Michael Coyle, SNP -> Scottish Labour Labour back in control of the council as a result. SNP administration lasted two months and ended in disgrace. What happened?
The SNP council leader, Jordan Linden, has been through some controversy recently (to put it extremely lightly): www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-warned-months-after-sex-27619417
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,783
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 12, 2022 10:52:23 GMT
Not sure. I think some in the security services felt that regardless of the specifics of the bill, they did need some legal protections for undercover operations. You can question whether that is an argument that stands up, but I think it's the sort of argument that is likely to be particularly persuasive with former DPPs and the like. I also think if it was a political decision they'd have been more likely to vote in favour, whereas the approach was to push amendments as usual but then to back down once they were rejected. had labour voted for it there'd have been a bigger rebellion which would have been politically painful Yes, but if his motivation was mainly political signalling he may still have seen that as worthwhile? I'm another one inclined to agree it was more the lawyer within Starmer than the politician, especially since it was fairly early on in his leadership.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,662
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Post by European Lefty on Aug 12, 2022 12:45:06 GMT
At the time I assumed it was because voting against wasn't going to stop the bill passing but would have generated negative press coverage so abstention seemed like the least damaging option.
I think Starmer and central office are repeatedly being told "this perception is damaging to the party so you need to fight against it". The problem is that the advice seems to be coming straight out of a PPE degree rather than any experience with actual voters and is and best not very good advice and at worst simply panicking
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Post by timrollpickering on Aug 12, 2022 12:52:19 GMT
Newry, Morse and Down District Council Henry Reilly, Slieve Gullion Ward - Independent Unionist to DUP Cllr Reilly now adds the DUP to his previous membership of the UUP, UKIP and TUV. How long before he can shout "Bingo!"?
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pl
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,566
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Post by pl on Aug 12, 2022 12:53:27 GMT
Newry, Morse and Down District Council Henry Reilly, Slieve Gullion Ward - Independent Unionist to DUP Cllr Reilly now adds the DUP to his previous membership of the UUP, UKIP and TUV. How long before he can shout "Bingo!"? When he joins NI Conservatives!
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