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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 10, 2022 0:21:13 GMT
would suggest they wrap up when bad man goes. I'd suggest not the case We all know that both the Conservatives and Labour each have have a good few percentage points of the electorate who identify with the party (broadly) but regularly don't vote for it as they want utter ideological purity. Or at least their personal version of it. No matter who is in charge there will always be that odd percentage point or two it is impossible to please. Often because they are obsessed by a single (esotetic) issue. It's less that and more that most of Breakthrough are people who want a non-overtly communist (e.g. TUSC) (or regional like NIP) left alternative to Labour and the Greens (both of which have sizeable/dominant centrist factions) from my POV. I'm not a member as a floating voter currently, but people from my ideological background are definitely in the target scope. I certainly view voting for and thus emboldening an authoritarian centrist such as Starmer as worse than voting for a smaller party and letting in the Tories, to be entirely honest. To simplify, my hatred of any mildly authoritarian ideology such as Blairism or "Starmerism" so to speak, is stronger than my hatred of the Tories. I expect carlton43 hates the Lib Dems for similar sorts of reasons.
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Post by aargauer on Aug 10, 2022 7:21:23 GMT
We all know that both the Conservatives and Labour each have have a good few percentage points of the electorate who identify with the party (broadly) but regularly don't vote for it as they want utter ideological purity. Or at least their personal version of it. No matter who is in charge there will always be that odd percentage point or two it is impossible to please. Often because they are obsessed by a single (esotetic) issue. It's less that and more that most of Breakthrough are people who want a non-overtly communist (e.g. TUSC) (or regional like NIP) left alternative to Labour and the Greens (both of which have sizeable/dominant centrist factions) from my POV. I'm not a member as a floating voter currently, but people from my ideological background are definitely in the target scope. I certainly view voting for and thus emboldening an authoritarian centrist such as Starmer as worse than voting for a smaller party and letting in the Tories, to be entirely honest. To simplify, my hatred of any mildly authoritarian ideology such as Blairism or "Starmerism" so to speak, is stronger than my hatred of the Tories. I expect carlton43 hates the Lib Dems for similar sorts of reasons. Why do you see Starmer as particularly authoritarian?
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Post by carlton43 on Aug 10, 2022 7:29:49 GMT
We all know that both the Conservatives and Labour each have have a good few percentage points of the electorate who identify with the party (broadly) but regularly don't vote for it as they want utter ideological purity. Or at least their personal version of it. No matter who is in charge there will always be that odd percentage point or two it is impossible to please. Often because they are obsessed by a single (esotetic) issue. It's less that and more that most of Breakthrough are people who want a non-overtly communist (e.g. TUSC) (or regional like NIP) left alternative to Labour and the Greens (both of which have sizeable/dominant centrist factions) from my POV. I'm not a member as a floating voter currently, but people from my ideological background are definitely in the target scope. I certainly view voting for and thus emboldening an authoritarian centrist such as Starmer as worse than voting for a smaller party and letting in the Tories, to be entirely honest. To simplify, my hatred of any mildly authoritarian ideology such as Blairism or "Starmerism" so to speak, is stronger than my hatred of the Tories. I expect carlton43 hates the Lib Dems for similar sorts of reasons. There are important concepts expressed there and concepts embedded rather than considered and understood. I don't really have hatreds but I do think that there is more hatred about in general than there used to be. I have 'issues' with the LDs, 'Liberal', 'Liberalism' and especially 'Libertarianism'; whilst at the same time embracing a few elements of each of them. Like many people who have been around for a while, I am an amalgam of many strains of thinking; for me there is far less black and white and vast areas of grey and often now of 'beige', which I would define as political grey but with far less content, or no content at all.
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Aug 10, 2022 10:20:42 GMT
Eden, Penrith East. John Lynch, Conservative to Independent. The Conservatives lose their position as joint largest party. Council now 12 LD, 11 Con, 5 Independent Alliance, 5 Independent Group, 2 Green, 2 Labour, 1 Independent. The new Stoke. Why has he defected? Seems a bit pointless given that that council is sadly being abolished. Why do you see the abolition of the Eden Council as sad? Whilst not a fan of mamy of the new Unitary councils, I can see some sense in creating a larger council as the population of Eden doesn't allow for a large enough revenue flow for the council to serve the borough. There are similar issues for Barrow-in-Furness Politically, it makes it far more interesting as the Liberal Democrats' strength from South Lakeland will now face a challenge and people who have lent their votes in different directions due to perception of their preferred party's local weakness, will now see different possibilities opening up, as long as the political parties get their acts together, that is. Also, there is not much love for Eden Council as a historical entity, so its disappearance won't cause too much consternation, beyond those who do not wish to be associated with Westmorland or Barrow.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 10, 2022 11:33:27 GMT
I think the "sadly" there may have been a more general thing, as an expression of disapproval of the widespread move towards largish (at least) unitaries.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 10, 2022 12:12:47 GMT
It's less that and more that most of Breakthrough are people who want a non-overtly communist (e.g. TUSC) (or regional like NIP) left alternative to Labour and the Greens (both of which have sizeable/dominant centrist factions) from my POV. I'm not a member as a floating voter currently, but people from my ideological background are definitely in the target scope. I certainly view voting for and thus emboldening an authoritarian centrist such as Starmer as worse than voting for a smaller party and letting in the Tories, to be entirely honest. To simplify, my hatred of any mildly authoritarian ideology such as Blairism or "Starmerism" so to speak, is stronger than my hatred of the Tories. I expect carlton43 hates the Lib Dems for similar sorts of reasons. There are important concepts expressed there and concepts embedded rather than considered and understood. I don't really have hatreds but I do think that there is more hatred about in general than there used to be. I have 'issues' with the LDs, 'Liberal', 'Liberalism' and especially 'Libertarianism'; whilst at the same time embracing a few elements of each of them. Like many people who have been around for a while, I am an amalgam of many strains of thinking; for me there is far less black and white and vast areas of grey and often now of 'beige', which I would define as political grey but with far less content, or no content at all. To simplify though (perhaps ill-considered in a complex subject), you prefer to support harder and more consistent ideologies in general as opposed to the sometimes populist "None of the Above" outlook of parties like the LDs.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 10, 2022 12:17:06 GMT
It's less that and more that most of Breakthrough are people who want a non-overtly communist (e.g. TUSC) (or regional like NIP) left alternative to Labour and the Greens (both of which have sizeable/dominant centrist factions) from my POV. I'm not a member as a floating voter currently, but people from my ideological background are definitely in the target scope. I certainly view voting for and thus emboldening an authoritarian centrist such as Starmer as worse than voting for a smaller party and letting in the Tories, to be entirely honest. To simplify, my hatred of any mildly authoritarian ideology such as Blairism or "Starmerism" so to speak, is stronger than my hatred of the Tories. I expect carlton43 hates the Lib Dems for similar sorts of reasons. Why do you see Starmer as particularly authoritarian? 1) The prescription of certain LP factions for the first time in decades. 2) The summary dismissal of some Shadow Cabinet ministers when minor transgressions were made. 3) Constant regurgitation of a theme of "patriotism" in Labour policy releases, even when the subject matter is only distantly related. This is just to start with...
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 10, 2022 12:58:23 GMT
I think the "sadly" there may have been a more general thing, as an expression of disapproval of the widespread move towards largish (at least) unitaries. Yes indeed. I like two tier (which I admit is not the most efficient use of resources) and would rather the districts had been merged.
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Aug 10, 2022 18:22:03 GMT
Why do you see Starmer as particularly authoritarian? 1) The prescription of certain LP factions for the first time in decades. 2) The summary dismissal of some Shadow Cabinet ministers when minor transgressions were made. 3) Constant regurgitation of a theme of "patriotism" in Labour policy releases, even when the subject matter is only distantly related. This is just to start with... 1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go)
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Aug 10, 2022 18:47:11 GMT
1) The prescription of certain LP factions for the first time in decades. 2) The summary dismissal of some Shadow Cabinet ministers when minor transgressions were made. 3) Constant regurgitation of a theme of "patriotism" in Labour policy releases, even when the subject matter is only distantly related. This is just to start with... 1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go) This is the last I'll say on it for the benefit of mods of this thread, but, on 1, Corbyn had no desire to proscribe groups. He arguably should have prescribed Progress/Labour First for the all the trouble they caused, but he didn't. 2) I can't recall him sacking a shadow minister for a minor transgression - most of them resigned of their own accord AFAIK. 3) A strong theme (if not constant) of patriotism in Labour press releases is reminiscent of the language and tone used in press releases by authoritarian regimes. I don't believe he'd ever be a dictator or act like one to be entirely fair, but it is worrying when he utilises tools straight out of the one party "socialist" state playbook.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Aug 10, 2022 19:05:44 GMT
1) The prescription of certain LP factions for the first time in decades. 2) The summary dismissal of some Shadow Cabinet ministers when minor transgressions were made. 3) Constant regurgitation of a theme of "patriotism" in Labour policy releases, even when the subject matter is only distantly related. This is just to start with... 1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go) Given the damage Labour Party authoritianism did in your own district (Stroud), you should really stop denying it.
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Post by aargauer on Aug 10, 2022 19:10:52 GMT
1) The prescription of certain LP factions for the first time in decades. 2) The summary dismissal of some Shadow Cabinet ministers when minor transgressions were made. 3) Constant regurgitation of a theme of "patriotism" in Labour policy releases, even when the subject matter is only distantly related. This is just to start with... 1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go) Im not sure use of the word "authoritarian" without any prefixes or qualifiers to describe Starmers internal management of the Labour Party is a helpful way of describing things.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Aug 10, 2022 19:18:22 GMT
1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go) Im not sure use of the word "authoritarian" without any prefixes or qualifiers to describe Starmers internal management of the Labour Party is a helpful way of describing things. I think it's somewhat hypocritical. Lots of talk about the broad church, little evidence of wanting to put it into practice. But then I think it's something which only needs to exist because of the electoral system. I don't think Labour will win an overall majority next time. That could produce a variety of outcomes.
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 10, 2022 19:31:03 GMT
1) The prescription of certain LP factions for the first time in decades. 2) The summary dismissal of some Shadow Cabinet ministers when minor transgressions were made. 3) Constant regurgitation of a theme of "patriotism" in Labour policy releases, even when the subject matter is only distantly related. This is just to start with... 1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go) let's be right the proscription of fringe groups that's led to the expulsion of 1,000 members is more about the headline than it is the effect
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Aug 10, 2022 19:33:50 GMT
1) only because Corbyn never got round to it 2) Corbyn very much did get round to that one 3) is not inherently authoritarian (or even "constant" but I'll let that one go) let's be right the proscription of fringe groups that's led to the expulsion of 1,000 members is more about the headline than it is the effect Random members should not be kicked to try to please and appease an hostile press. It won't serve any purpose.
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 10, 2022 19:34:23 GMT
As a lawyer KS was pretty good on civil liberties. As leader the decision to abstain on spy cops and overseas suggest he struggles to balance his own principles with what the focus groups say
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Aug 10, 2022 19:36:55 GMT
As a lawyer KS was pretty good on civil liberties. As leader the decision to abstain on spy cops and overseas suggest he struggles to balance his own principles with what the focus groups say Which shows he has no leadership and isn't fit to be leader. Relying on or even suggesting using focus groups should be grounds for immediate dismissal.
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 10, 2022 19:37:09 GMT
let's be right the proscription of fringe groups that's led to the expulsion of 1,000 members is more about the headline than it is the effect Random members should not be kicked to try to please and appease an hostile press. It won't serve any purpose. I read the latest round of proscriptions led to few if any expulsions
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batman
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Post by batman on Aug 10, 2022 20:51:55 GMT
let's be right the proscription of fringe groups that's led to the expulsion of 1,000 members is more about the headline than it is the effect Random members should not be kicked to try to please and appease an hostile press. It won't serve any purpose. very few of them are "random". Instances of people being unjustly expelled are very few & far between. Not non-existent, but rare. Mostly they've broken the party rules & had it coming.
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batman
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Post by batman on Aug 10, 2022 20:54:00 GMT
the AWL was de facto proscribed before. Several people including some friends of mine were expelled in Corbyn's time purely for membership of it. One was a CLP Chair at the time. The latest proscriptions have led to some expulsions, contrary to what Matt has said. They include Ken Loach (whose expulsion I think was justified) and Pamela Fitzpatrick, the 2019 candidate for Harrow East (whose expulsion I think was extremely harsh)
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