|
Post by stb12 on Oct 12, 2021 9:16:37 GMT
I’ve been a football fan longer than when I was interested in politics, particularly when West Brom have been in the Premier League with Birmingham, Aston Villa and Wolves you’d get references all the time to West Midland derbies and who was finishing as the top West Midlands team. So that would give a pretty good idea of the geography
|
|
Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,199
|
Post by Chris from Brum on Oct 12, 2021 9:38:15 GMT
The question mark is over University College Birmingham, once the College of Food and Domestic Arts (it has had other names since), as I'm not sure whether it awards its own degrees. And it turns out that it doesn't - they're accredited by Warwick University. So to me it's 0.5 of a university.
|
|
Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
|
Post by Richard Allen on Oct 12, 2021 9:40:06 GMT
Two things go a long way to define a geographical entity. One is having a football team, the other is to have a University. Without either you will struggle to gain recognition. It’s all about identity. Of the ten boroughs in Greater Manchester, all have a League football team apart from Stockport (County are in the National League) and Bury (following recent liquidation of Bury FC). Manchester (x2), Salford, and Bolton have Universities. In the West Midlands, Wolverhampton, Sandwell, Birmingham (x2), Walsall, and Coventry all have league football teams. Solihull and Dudley do not. Birmingham (x3), Wolverhampton, and Coventry (x1.5) have Universities. Tameside doesn't have a football team using those criteria. Trafford does, but I don't think it gives the borough an identity, ditto Sandwell. If anything, Trafford's team is famous for giving a neighbouring borough an identity internationally. I can think of a whole list of places with neither a uni or a football team but a definite identity: Wakefield, anywhere in Cumbria apart from Carlisle, Gateshead, Warrington, Dudley etc I would really love to accompany someone walking around St Helens while they were telling the locals that they had no identity. Hammersmith abd Fulham You may just have missed the point.
|
|
|
Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 12, 2021 9:43:30 GMT
Because even the most restrictive definition of the Black Country - the one based on the 30ft coal seam - contains much territory outside that borough, mostly in Dudley. Not just much territory, but much of the core territory at the very heart of the Black Country. This could have been solved* by merging Dudley and Sandwell. It'd still have a smaller population than Birmingham and the best way to diffuse local animosity is to put as many of them together as possible so people lose track of who exactly they hate. This new authority could then be called West Birmingham. *OK, it still wouldn't include Bilston and Darlaston, but it'd be close enough.
|
|
|
Post by MeirionGwril on Oct 12, 2021 9:50:53 GMT
Any actual councillors or other notables defected ...?
|
|
J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,670
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 12, 2021 9:55:44 GMT
Correct. It was designed to be just that. Coventry and Warwickshire donated the land. Unfortunately they called it the University of Warwick on the insistence of Warwickshire. That has caused confusion ever since with people thinking that it was in Warwick. Although most of the 1960s campus universities were named after the county, eg Sussex, Essex, Surrey, Kent rather than Brighton, Colchester, Guildford, Canterbury. York and Lancaster of course avoided the issue. And Stirling.
|
|
|
Post by John Chanin on Oct 12, 2021 10:04:31 GMT
Not just much territory, but much of the core territory at the very heart of the Black Country. This could have been solved* by merging Dudley and Sandwell. It'd still have a smaller population than Birmingham and the best way to diffuse local animosity is to put as many of them together as possible so people lose track of who exactly they hate. This new authority could then be called West Birmingham. *OK, it still wouldn't include Bilston and Darlaston, but it'd be close enough. I can envisage the pitchforks now, although pickaxes would be more likely for the miners and factory workers concerned.
|
|
|
Post by owainsutton on Oct 12, 2021 10:24:15 GMT
West Chorlton!? Not sure that's a place, lmao. There are people in Whalley Range who claim to live in North Chorlton, which is even more absurd. We sometimes refer to Chorlton as East Stretford.
|
|
|
Post by grahammurray on Oct 12, 2021 10:32:16 GMT
Tameside doesn't have a football team using those criteria. Trafford does, but I don't think it gives the borough an identity, ditto Sandwell. If anything, Trafford's team is famous for giving a neighbouring borough an identity internationally. I can think of a whole list of places with neither a uni or a football team but a definite identity: Wakefield, anywhere in Cumbria apart from Carlisle, Gateshead, Warrington, Dudley etc I would really love to accompany someone walking around St Helens while they were telling the locals that they had no identity. Hammersmith abd Fulham You may just have missed the point. I bow to the master of point missing.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,636
|
Post by The Bishop on Oct 12, 2021 10:34:45 GMT
Two things go a long way to define a geographical entity. One is having a football team, the other is to have a University. Without either you will struggle to gain recognition. It’s all about identity. Of the ten boroughs in Greater Manchester, all have a League football team apart from Stockport (County are in the National League) and Bury (following recent liquidation of Bury FC). Manchester (x2), Salford, and Bolton have Universities. In the West Midlands, Wolverhampton, Sandwell, Birmingham (x2), Walsall, and Coventry all have league football teams. Solihull and Dudley do not. Birmingham (x3), Wolverhampton, and Coventry (x1.5) have Universities. Tameside doesn't have a football team using those criteria. Trafford does, but I don't think it gives the borough an identity, ditto Sandwell. If anything, Trafford's team is famous for giving a neighbouring borough an identity internationally. I can think of a whole list of places with neither a uni or a football team but a definite identity: Wakefield, anywhere in Cumbria apart from Carlisle, Gateshead, Warrington, Dudley etc I would really love to accompany someone walking around St Helens while they were telling the locals that they had no identity. Hammersmith abd Fulham Even if just talking about football league teams, you are out of date there
|
|
|
Post by grahammurray on Oct 12, 2021 10:45:30 GMT
Tameside doesn't have a football team using those criteria. Trafford does, but I don't think it gives the borough an identity, ditto Sandwell. If anything, Trafford's team is famous for giving a neighbouring borough an identity internationally. I can think of a whole list of places with neither a uni or a football team but a definite identity: Wakefield, anywhere in Cumbria apart from Carlisle, Gateshead, Warrington, Dudley etc I would really love to accompany someone walking around St Helens while they were telling the locals that they had no identity. Hammersmith abd Fulham Even if just talking about football league teams, you are out of date there True. I used to work in Barrow two days a week so really should have remembered their glorious return. In some ways the point still holds. I don't think Barrow had less of an identity when they failed re-election or gained any when they fought their way back
|
|
|
Post by MeirionGwril on Oct 12, 2021 10:50:10 GMT
Any actual councillors or other notables defected ...? So, no, then
|
|
Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,199
|
Post by Chris from Brum on Oct 12, 2021 11:13:48 GMT
Even if just talking about football league teams, you are out of date there True. I used to work in Barrow two days a week so really should have remembered their glorious return. In some ways the point still holds. I don't think Barrow had less of an identity when they failed re-election or gained any when they fought their way back When Barrow failed to get re-election, they were in Lancashire IIRC. Carlisle was then in Cumberland.
|
|
iang
Lib Dem
Posts: 1,537
|
Post by iang on Oct 12, 2021 11:21:15 GMT
Two things go a long way to define a geographical entity. One is having a football team, the other is to have a University. Without either you will struggle to gain recognition. It’s all about identity. Of the ten boroughs in Greater Manchester, all have a League football team apart from Stockport (County are in the National League) and Bury (following recent liquidation of Bury FC). Manchester (x2), Salford, and Bolton have Universities. In the West Midlands, Wolverhampton, Sandwell, Birmingham (x2), Walsall, and Coventry all have league football teams. Solihull and Dudley do not. Birmingham (x3), Wolverhampton, and Coventry (x1.5) have Universities. Birmingham has 4, possibly, 5 universities, there being University of Birmingham (the redbrick one), Aston (the mid-20th century one), Birmingham City University (the former poly), and Newman University (former Catholic teacher training college now upgraded). The question mark is over University College Birmingham, once the College of Food and Domestic Arts (it has had other names since), as I'm not sure whether it awards its own degrees. I can confirm it does, because I went to its graduation ceremony a few weeks ago, as my middle daughter Katie graduated from there (held over from 2020) in Baking & Nutrition. And now works in the R&D department of Fiona Cairns, the baking company that makes the Royal wedding cakes, or William and Kate's at least, as well as the cakes for Harrods and Waitrose. It's great when she comes back at weekends after a week spent trying out new ideas for products
|
|
|
Post by grahammurray on Oct 12, 2021 11:33:15 GMT
True. I used to work in Barrow two days a week so really should have remembered their glorious return. In some ways the point still holds. I don't think Barrow had less of an identity when they failed re-election or gained any when they fought their way back When Barrow failed to get re-election, they were in Lancashire IIRC. Carlisle was then in Cumberland. Please don't tell people in Barrow they're not in Lancashire.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,636
|
Post by The Bishop on Oct 12, 2021 11:43:09 GMT
When Barrow failed to get re-election, they were in Lancashire IIRC. Carlisle was then in Cumberland. Please don't tell people in Barrow they're not in Lancashire. I think opinions have *slightly* softened there nearly 50 years on, but only slightly. The concept of Cumbria was indeed *extremely* unpopular at the time, not just in Furness but other parts too (perhaps most strongly, and still very much extant today, in the Sedbergh area)
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 12, 2021 11:43:50 GMT
Salford. Some of its inhabitants are more Mancs than the Mancs, whereas some resent being in Salford at all! The met boroughs have a lot of this given that a fair few are arbitrary groupings on a map, with zero identity. Trafford or Tameside as prime examples. People in Stretford, Urmston, Audenshaw or Droylsden would consider themselves to be Mancunians. Elsewhere, I've never met anyone from the Borough of Gedling who doesn't say they're from Nottingham. I work with someone from Stretford who would say north Trafford over Mcr, weirdly enough. Now that's just weird!
|
|
|
Post by grahammurray on Oct 12, 2021 12:32:09 GMT
Please don't tell people in Barrow they're not in Lancashire. I think opinions have *slightly* softened there nearly 50 years on, but only slightly. The concept of Cumbria was indeed *extremely* unpopular at the time, not just in Furness but other parts too (perhaps most strongly, and still very much extant today, in the Sedbergh area) I lived in Keswick for a lot of the 1990s and actually found that there was a a great deal of acceptance of 'Cumbria' as a unit throughout the area. Much more so that the other artificial constructs such as Avon or Cleveland. As you say, maybe less so in Sedbergh, which had been taken out of the County That God Forgot About. Nowt's ever reet with them.
|
|
Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,199
|
Post by Chris from Brum on Oct 12, 2021 12:48:33 GMT
I think opinions have *slightly* softened there nearly 50 years on, but only slightly. The concept of Cumbria was indeed *extremely* unpopular at the time, not just in Furness but other parts too (perhaps most strongly, and still very much extant today, in the Sedbergh area) I lived in Keswick for a lot of the 1990s and actually found that there was a a great deal of acceptance of 'Cumbria' as a unit throughout the area. Much more so that the other artificial constructs such as Avon or Cleveland. As you say, maybe less so in Sedbergh, which had been taken out of the County That God Forgot About. Nowt's ever reet with them. Was "Cumbria" not seen as a takeover of the other constituent areas by Cumberland? If so, it should not be surprising if there was no resentment from the town where Cumberland pencils came from.
|
|
|
Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Oct 12, 2021 13:01:04 GMT
West Chorlton!? Not sure that's a place, lmao. There are people in Whalley Range who claim to live in North Chorlton, which is even more absurd. Didsbury is North Wythenshawe by that system!Or Mottram is East Hattersley! 😆😆
|
|