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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Jun 15, 2021 9:59:11 GMT
No and you'll get used to his language.
If anything the opposite is true, carlton43 is settling into Sheffield fine and is quitely happy. Though quietly is a relative term, fo the cantankerous old git.
As the TV advert has it "Yes, She does!". You started so well with your post but I was disappointed with the conclusion. & cups of Assam later and she is feeling much better. (crosses legs and adjust stocking seams).
I crossed posted with your previous post, and then you answered before I deleted this.
It is ever thus.
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Post by greenhert on Jun 15, 2021 10:06:28 GMT
Is there actually something wrong with Charlton 43? Is he or she unhappy on a personal level? Quite sad that he chooses to use the kind of language that he or she does. Well now, Rodion, how are you this morning? What are you studying? And has my dear friend Porfiry been in touch with you lately? If you preface an avatar name with an @ and then write the avatar name out in lower case without gaps it should show up as intended. Of course you need to pay attention and get it right! I do not support a London club sarf of the river. I am a Gunner.A fellow Arsenal fan in other words
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Jun 15, 2021 10:24:28 GMT
Is there actually something wrong with Charlton 43? Is he or she unhappy on a personal level? Quite sad that he chooses to use the kind of language that he or she does. Well now, Rodion, how are you this morning? What are you studying? And has my dear friend Porfiry been in touch with you lately? If you preface an avatar name with an @ and then write the avatar name out in lower case without gaps it should show up as intended. Of course you need to pay attention and get it right! I do not support a London club sarf of the river. I am a Gunner. A Kent club in exile, like yourself.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Jun 15, 2021 10:34:21 GMT
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 15, 2021 11:08:49 GMT
Well now, Rodion, how are you this morning? What are you studying? And has my dear friend Porfiry been in touch with you lately? If you preface an avatar name with an @ and then write the avatar name out in lower case without gaps it should show up as intended. Of course you need to pay attention and get it right! I do not support a London club sarf of the river. I am a Gunner. A Kent club in exile, like yourself. I was born (and spent first 2-nights of life) in Cheshire, but have had no further association with it at all. I don't see the place of birth to be of any particular importance (any more than the time of day or phase of moon, sun and zodiac position) now that Yorkshire have given up the selection requirement. I had an aunt (sister to my Mother) born to English parents but on board an American ship in mid-Atlantic on return from USA where she was conceived. For me it is all about parentage, genes, and the long term generational background, association and nurture. But modern life is tending to fray such considerations and to dilute them.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 15, 2021 11:10:00 GMT
No. I haven't got the necessary blisters.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 15, 2021 11:44:26 GMT
It does seem to take a special level of despicitability in a matter of weeks, out of years, to find ones values to no longer fit to such a degree that you not only can't support the Party you were elected as but indeed suddenly align with their opponents.
To have so little honour and/or regard for ones constituents where you claim to have felt increasingly disaligned with a parties objectives and values over a number of years that you did not decide to not seek re-election under their banner but a calendar page ago.
[Sanctimonious drivel] Did you forget to take your medication this morning?
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 15, 2021 11:50:50 GMT
Did you forget to take your medication this morning? No. Unlike you I am not on any. Other than statins at night before bed because medics are increasingly keen to prescribe for all over 55. I have been on them for many years and I am persuaded that on balance they make some sense. Your comment verges on the area of Forum prohibition on slurs about mental illness, being pissed and comments on health, doesn't it? Just watch it! As to 'samctimonious drivel' I defer to you as a past master at the art, and would point to all your colleagues campaigning to change minds and then throwing up their hands in horror when someone changes his mind! Daft or wot?
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obsie
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Post by obsie on Jun 15, 2021 17:19:53 GMT
Ryan McCready (Derry and Strabane, Faughan) resigns from the DUP.
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cj
Socialist
These fragments I have shored against my ruins
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Post by cj on Jun 15, 2021 18:46:05 GMT
It does seem to take a special level of despicitability in a matter of weeks, out of years, to find ones values to no longer fit to such a degree that you not only can't support the Party you were elected as but indeed suddenly align with their opponents.
To have so little honour and/or regard for ones constituents where you claim to have felt increasingly disaligned with a parties objectives and values over a number of years that you did not decide to not seek re-election under their banner but a calendar page ago.
Luckily for all you posting in this manner I set a low bar and a low penalty for arch hypocrisy. It does not worry me and I feel that many of you obsess about it too much. This bloke has changed his mind for some reason. Some of you suspect a venal reason; a career enhancing reason; a tactical reason? Perhaps? Even possibly? It happens. All parties suffer this. People flow in and out of the LDs as often as changing their underwear. Significant numbers of MPs did it in thought and act between 2016 and 2019, and during the great SDP reallignment. The whole point of party politics is to get out there (Chesham&Amersham, Hartlepool and Batley&Spen) to change minds, change votes and to 'convert' enough people to change so that 'your party' win. That is 'good', 'wholesome', 'honest' and 'decent'. That lower order of human, the voter, is 'permitted' to change, 'expected' to change, 'must' change! That is the system. That is how it works. But Woe Betide an actual insider, 'a player', doing so. No!! Never!! He is held to a higher order, a different standard, differing rules! Tut! Tut!! He cannot change, must not change, is evil for changing. The rules are different for him. Politics and change are not for him. The very ideas!!! Politics and change are for lesser people. Ephemeral people. Voter people who are our stock in trade. They may change. They must change. Indiders can never change. Horrible evil people. Got the idea yet? Realise how fuckwit stupid that makes you all seem? No! Of course you don't! You are politicians and have had the mind implant that renders you completely stupid. So go out today and canvass and hope and try to win people over. But lay off the paid up members and the elected officials. They are sacrosanct. They are special. They are off limits. It is just ordinary unwashed erks that may be approached and asked to change their mind. Because they are lesser and don't have a proper mind at all. They, the hoi polloi lesser beings are ripe for your message. They are fair game. Your utter hypocrites. You utter cunts! So no change there then. Better now?
The cunt and hypocrite in this instance is the switching councillor who a couple of weeks ago went out and sold themself to the public on a set of credentials that they then not only dropped but switched to a (arguably) opposite position. They were hawking false wares and having got away with it denied the electors the representation they supported*, if they were selling goods they would still be under warranty.
Was there some sort of demonstrably big decision or ideological motion before the council that spurred this decision, I do not know, but if there was strange how the article or the councillor made no mention of it (and not at all obsessing about it I didn't bother to find out, I was just giving an opinion/observation/comment on something I read; and you know all about that sweetie as you like to go into threads on any and everything to ensure we know just what you think on the matter, seldom providing us with any surprise), so yes I call shenanigans and grift.
But to argue that party politics is about changing minds or votes is bullshit when the repository of the votes sails under a false flag, if they felt that way they should put their allowances where their heart or mouth is, and to believe that is hypocrisy, nobody was stopping them, and the individual in this case was claiming this is how they felt for years FFS, your client has admitted his guilt!
They played the game as permitted, acceptable, no foul, but I am free to think the player belongs to a small selection of exceptionally self-serving unprincipled scum, cunt I may be (and it can be but a commendation when awarded by the likes of yourself, I'll wear it with honour next to my pink triangle) but I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite, I really don't.
Anyway, lovely to chat, as ever but I have some Jersey's to scrape. Ttfn
*One is of course free to pretend that the electors vote for a candidate and not the party but with the exception of a few voters this is seldom the case and we have a system set up to all but pretend parties don't exist to give this line of argument traction.
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Jun 15, 2021 21:27:33 GMT
Is there actually something wrong with Charlton 43? Is he or she unhappy on a personal level? Quite sad that he chooses to use the kind of language that he or she does. Well now, Rodion, how are you this morning? What are you studying? And has my dear friend Porfiry been in touch with you lately? If you preface an avatar name with an @ and then write the avatar name out in lower case without gaps it should show up as intended. Of course you need to pay attention and get it right! I do not support a London club sarf of the river. I am a Gunner. Arsenal, a club that originated in Woolwich, which the last time I looked was South of the River.
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Post by casualobserver on Jun 15, 2021 21:32:22 GMT
Well, it’s rare indeed for a relatively minor councillor’s defection to spawn such acrimony, especially in a Council safely and securely held by the party he defected from.
I welcome Mak’s defection to the Conservatives. If the roles were reversed, and a Conservative had defected to Labour with similar timing and in similar circumstances, I’d feel betrayed.
For a councillor to defect from a secure ruling group to a far smaller minority group at least reduces any suspicion in my mind that this was done for personal advancement.
Councillors get to learn a lot about their community, and about those who govern them. It should not be surprising that, even when no personal animosity is involved, councillors sometimes jump ship. The particular question here is one of timing.
I recall the infamous case of Newham Councillor Alex Kellaway who defected to the dominant ruling Labour Group in the middle of the 1994 Newham North East Parliamentary by-election when he was the nominated Liberal Democrat candidate. He let the LibDems down tremendously (I’d go as far as to say he betrayed them) but Labour didn’t refuse his application to defect (and he remained loyal to them for decades afterwards).
So the question is, for how long after you are nominated by a Party is it unacceptable to defect from that Party.
I know there are some on this site who’d say that it’s never acceptable. That’s a principled and perfectly consistent opinion, but one with which I don’t agree.
However, defecting even before Election Day once you’ve been nominated surely can’t be acceptable.
So when is it OK to defect? A year after the election? A month? In your acceptance speech at the count?
And if that defection (unlike the one currently in contention) leads to the defector being rewarded with a political post and an SRA? Does that change the moral position?
I accept the general right of councillors to defect. I know that it would be wrong to announce your defection in your acceptance speech at the count. But I just don’t know when the unacceptable defection becomes an acceptable one.
It comes back to partisanship, I’m afraid. I welcome our latest convert in Wolverhampton. I’d feel unacceptably betrayed if the defection had been in the other direction in similar circumstances. So much for trying to define an appropriate period to wait after election before defecting!
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 15, 2021 21:53:44 GMT
I recall the infamous case of Newham Councillor Alex Kellaway who defected to the dominant ruling Labour Group in the middle of the 1994 Newham North East Parliamentary by-election when he was the nominated Liberal Democrat candidate. He let the LibDems down tremendously (I’d go as far as to say he betrayed them) but Labour didn’t refuse his application to defect (and he remained loyal to them for decades afterwards). Kellaway had been a long term Labour party member before defecting to the SDP on its foundation, then moving to the Lib Dems.
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Post by grahammurray on Jun 15, 2021 22:13:01 GMT
I recall the infamous case of Newham Councillor Alex Kellaway who defected to the dominant ruling Labour Group in the middle of the 1994 Newham North East Parliamentary by-election when he was the nominated Liberal Democrat candidate. He let the LibDems down tremendously (I’d go as far as to say he betrayed them) but Labour didn’t refuse his application to defect (and he remained loyal to them for decades afterwards). Kellaway had been a long term Labour party member before defecting to the SDP on its foundation, then moving to the Lib Dems. I remember that episode. By rights he should have been expelled from Labour for standing against an official party candidate.
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Post by timrollpickering on Jun 15, 2021 22:33:28 GMT
I recall the infamous case of Newham Councillor Alex Kellaway who defected to the dominant ruling Labour Group in the middle of the 1994 Newham North East Parliamentary by-election when he was the nominated Liberal Democrat candidate. He let the LibDems down tremendously (I’d go as far as to say he betrayed them) but Labour didn’t refuse his application to defect (and he remained loyal to them for decades afterwards). Kellaway had been a long term Labour party member before defecting to the SDP on its foundation, then moving to the Lib Dems. I seem to recall he'd initially gone with the Continuing SDP but ended up in the Lib Dems by the 1990 elections. (One Liberal activist from the time implied that Kellaway's initial decision was a partial reason for most Newham Alliance activists settling in the SaLaDs.) IIUC he basically saw himself as a social democrat in a period when it wasn't clear what the natural political home for social democrats was until Blair was closing in on the Labour leadership. He was reportedly also not too happy with the by-election campaign the party gave him including attacking Labour run Newham council and praising the record of a recently ousted administration in a neighbouring borough.
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 15, 2021 22:56:34 GMT
Well, it’s rare indeed for a relatively minor councillor’s defection to spawn such acrimony, especially in a Council safely and securely held by the party he defected from. I welcome Mak’s defection to the Conservatives. If the roles were reversed, and a Conservative had defected to Labour with similar timing and in similar circumstances, I’d feel betrayed. For a councillor to defect from a secure ruling group to a far smaller minority group at least reduces any suspicion in my mind that this was done for personal advancement. Councillors get to learn a lot about their community, and about those who govern them. It should not be surprising that, even when no personal animosity is involved, councillors sometimes jump ship. The particular question here is one of timing. I recall the infamous case of Newham Councillor Alex Kellaway who defected to the dominant ruling Labour Group in the middle of the 1994 Newham North East Parliamentary by-election when he was the nominated Liberal Democrat candidate. He let the LibDems down tremendously (I’d go as far as to say he betrayed them) but Labour didn’t refuse his application to defect (and he remained loyal to them for decades afterwards). So the question is, for how long after you are nominated by a Party is it unacceptable to defect from that Party. I know there are some on this site who’d say that it’s never acceptable. That’s a principled and perfectly consistent opinion, but one with which I don’t agree. However, defecting even before Election Day once you’ve been nominated surely can’t be acceptable. So when is it OK to defect? A year after the election? A month? In your acceptance speech at the count? And if that defection (unlike the one currently in contention) leads to the defector being rewarded with a political post and an SRA? Does that change the moral position? I accept the general right of councillors to defect. I know that it would be wrong to announce your defection in your acceptance speech at the count. But I just don’t know when the unacceptable defection becomes an acceptable one. It comes back to partisanship, I’m afraid. I welcome our latest convert in Wolverhampton. I’d feel unacceptably betrayed if the defection had been in the other direction in similar circumstances. So much for trying to define an appropriate period to wait after election before defecting! I believe that if you defect, you should face the electorate in a byelection. I am in no way partisan on this matter.
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jun 15, 2021 23:13:30 GMT
So the question is, for how long after you are nominated by a Party is it unacceptable to defect from that Party. I know there are some on this site who’d say that it’s never acceptable. That’s a principled and perfectly consistent opinion, but one with which I don’t agree. However, defecting even before Election Day once you’ve been nominated surely can’t be acceptable. So when is it OK to defect? A year after the election? A month? In your acceptance speech at the count? And if that defection (unlike the one currently in contention) leads to the defector being rewarded with a political post and an SRA? Does that change the moral position? I accept the general right of councillors to defect. I know that it would be wrong to announce your defection in your acceptance speech at the count. But I just don’t know when the unacceptable defection becomes an acceptable one. It's a continuuuumm. Election day* 100% No. The time up to nominations for re-election: trending towards Yes. I would say it's not a straight line between those two points, but would say it stays close to 100% No for a long period after election before trending towards Yes.
* Or rather, prior to nomination period - I'd say it's fraud to seek and accept party nomination and defect within the election or immediately afterwards.
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jun 15, 2021 23:20:42 GMT
It comes back to partisanship, I’m afraid. I welcome our latest convert in Wolverhampton. I’d feel unacceptably betrayed if the defection had been in the other direction in similar circumstances. So much for trying to define an appropriate period to wait after election before defecting! I believe that if you fect, you should face the electorate in a byelection. I am in no way partisan on this matter. Adding to my earlier comment, I'd say that the six-month no-election period immediately prior to re-election is the appropriate period to decide if you want to defect.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 15, 2021 23:26:12 GMT
So the question is, for how long after you are nominated by a Party is it unacceptable to defect from that Party. I know there are some on this site who’d say that it’s never acceptable. That’s a principled and perfectly consistent opinion, but one with which I don’t agree. However, defecting even before Election Day once you’ve been nominated surely can’t be acceptable. So when is it OK to defect? A year after the election? A month? In your acceptance speech at the count? And if that defection (unlike the one currently in contention) leads to the defector being rewarded with a political post and an SRA? Does that change the moral position? I accept the general right of councillors to defect. I know that it would be wrong to announce your defection in your acceptance speech at the count. But I just don’t know when the unacceptable defection becomes an acceptable one. It's a continuuuumm. Election day* 100% No. The time up to nominations for re-election: trending towards Yes. I would say it's not a straight line between those two points, but would say it stays close to 100% No for a long period after election before trending towards Yes.
* Or rather, prior to nomination period - I'd say it's fraud to seek and accept party nomination and defect within the election or immediately afterwards.
You do also have to allow for specific events, especially new party leader announcing complete change of direction. The standard line is "I haven't changed, the party has." Question has to be: how credible is that? There doesn't need to be one big thing, though that'll do it, but at very least you ought to be able to point to a drip-feed of straws on your back and that things have changed since you accepted the nomination.
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Post by tonyhill on Jun 16, 2021 5:43:12 GMT
A councillor who defects very soon after having been elected should at least repay the costs of his election to the party he has defected from, otherwise that could be construed as fraud - I am not aware of any case law on this, but it would be interesting to test it. There have been a couple of cases in Hampshire in the last decade or so of people elected as LibDems almost immediately joining the Conservatives. It is complicated in some cases though: members 'Parties' like the Andover Alliance discovering after they are elected that they hate each other more than their opponents for example.
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