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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Jun 16, 2021 5:52:18 GMT
Elected Councillors should obey the law. If they do that then they have the right to defect or not, when they want, without penalty other than facing any consequences are the ballot box at the next election. Some defections may leave a sour taste in the mouth but as long as they a legal, well its part of our democratic system. I'd prefer to leave it as it is rather than be hindbound by a minutae of rules governing when and where they can take place. I'd also say no to people having to refund parties, as someone in some party will always find a way to use this for a personal vendetta.
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iang
Lib Dem
Posts: 1,524
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Post by iang on Jun 16, 2021 5:52:25 GMT
There had long been tensions in Newham between the SDP and the Liberals. I don't know what if anything that had to do with it. He was also the only Lib Dem on the council, which may be made him more vulnerable to pressure to defect. Many defections are the result of deselection or some other disappointment, though that wouldn't seem to be the case here
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carlton43
Non-Aligned
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 16, 2021 6:28:41 GMT
Well now, Rodion, how are you this morning? What are you studying? And has my dear friend Porfiry been in touch with you lately? If you preface an avatar name with an @ and then write the avatar name out in lower case without gaps it should show up as intended. Of course you need to pay attention and get it right! I do not support a London club sarf of the river. I am a Gunner. Arsenal, a club that originated in Woolwich, which the last time I looked was South of the River. Well, it isn't now is it thickoo? And it isn't bloody Charlton which was the point of my post, is it thickoo! And we all knew that fact anyway Capt. Obvious.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 16, 2021 10:33:36 GMT
There had long been tensions in Newham between the SDP and the Liberals. I don't know what if anything that had to do with it. He was also the only Lib Dem on the council, which may be made him more vulnerable to pressure to defect. Many defections are the result of deselection or some other disappointment, though that wouldn't seem to be the case here Kellaway defecting in the very unusual fashion he did lends credence to the idea of the LibDem campaign in that byelection being the final straw for him, though.
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Post by matureleft on Jun 16, 2021 11:30:33 GMT
While it's obviously exasperating when someone elected under a party banner defects I have taken that philosophically in the past and would continue to do so. But I would want to think carefully about the party's selection process in that instance, and consider whether there were steps that might have identified the risk.
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jun 16, 2021 14:05:24 GMT
A councillor who defects very soon after having been elected should at least repay the costs of his election to the party he has defected from, otherwise that could be construed as fraud - I am not aware of any case law on this, but it would be interesting to test it. There have been a couple of cases in Hampshire in the last decade or so of people elected as LibDems almost immediately joining the Conservatives. It is complicated in some cases though: members 'Parties' like the Andover Alliance discovering after they are elected that they hate each other more than their opponents for example. Legal advice was sought by the Sheffield party in September 2010 after a certain individual defected to Labour immediately after being elected as a LibDem, after more than twelve months of work by a Forum member getting him elected as a LibDem after he'd been selected as the LibDem candidate in place of that Forum member. The legal advice was essentially "nowt you can do". Person X is legally elected as Person X, not a representative of Party Y.
My thoughts are along the lines of the party insisting the candidate enters into a contract with the party as part of the party selection process, so it then becomes a contract law case. It's something I ponder in relation to my role as Nominating Officer. I shouldn't be just signing whatever bit of paper is shoved under my nose, the candidate should be compelled to comply with something in order to get my signiture and the party description on the ballot paper.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 16, 2021 14:20:38 GMT
A councillor who defects very soon after having been elected should at least repay the costs of his election to the party he has defected from, otherwise that could be construed as fraud - I am not aware of any case law on this, but it would be interesting to test it. There have been a couple of cases in Hampshire in the last decade or so of people elected as LibDems almost immediately joining the Conservatives. It is complicated in some cases though: members 'Parties' like the Andover Alliance discovering after they are elected that they hate each other more than their opponents for example. Legal advice was sought by the Sheffield party in September 2010 after a certain individual defected to Labour immediately after being elected as a LibDem, after more than twelve months of work by a Forum member getting him elected as a LibDem after he'd been selected as the LibDem candidate in place of that Forum member. The legal advice was essentially "nowt you can do". Person X is legally elected as Person X, not a representative of Party Y. My thoughts are along the lines of the party insisting the candidate enters into a contract with the party as part of the party selection process, so it then becomes a contract law case. It's something I ponder in relation to my role as Nominating Officer. I shouldn't be just signing whatever bit of paper is shoved under my nose, the candidate should be compelled to comply with something in order to get my signiture and the party description on the ballot paper.
IIRC UKIP candidates had to make some kind of declaration along these lines, that if they left they party having been elected as a UKIP candidate they would resign their seat. Given the number of UKIP councillors who did end up defecting/resigning, often quite soon after being elected, I guess this wasn't worth the paper it was written on
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Post by timrollpickering on Jun 16, 2021 14:27:24 GMT
I think the problem is that a promise to a party is just a promise and not something the latter can get the chief executive to act on.
I'm not sure how effective it would be to write a post dated letter. "Dear Council Chief Executive. In the event that I have voluntarily changed party this is to be taken as my letter of resignation to trigger a by-election to allow the electorate to have their say on this development. This letter is being held by my local party chair and will be sent to you immediately upon my switching of party."
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jun 16, 2021 14:29:59 GMT
I wonder if anyone remembers the Communist Party tradition, shared by other far left parties, in which all its elected representative was subject to 'recall'. Any candidates likely to be elected would have to sign an undated letter of resignation, which was kept by the party. If the representative got in, and then stepped out of line, the party would put a date on the letter and send it in.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,047
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Post by peterl on Jun 16, 2021 14:37:14 GMT
I wonder if anyone remembers the Communist Party tradition, shared by other far left parties, in which all its elected representative was subject to 'recall'. Any candidates likely to be elected would have to sign an undated letter of resignation, which was kept by the party. If the representative got in, and then stepped out of line, the party would put a date on the letter and send it in. Interesting. Do you happen to know how the decision to send in the letter was made? Was it up to one person, or would there be a vote?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jun 16, 2021 14:49:29 GMT
I wonder if anyone remembers the Communist Party tradition, shared by other far left parties, in which all its elected representative was subject to 'recall'. Any candidates likely to be elected would have to sign an undated letter of resignation, which was kept by the party. If the representative got in, and then stepped out of line, the party would put a date on the letter and send it in. Interesting. Do you happen to know how the decision to send in the letter was made? Was it up to one person, or would there be a vote? I don't know if it ever happened, but it would be decided according to the grand traditions of democratic centralism.
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 16, 2021 14:51:33 GMT
Interesting. Do you happen to know how the decision to send in the letter was made? Was it up to one person, or would there be a vote? I don't know if it ever happened, but it would be decided according to the grand traditions of democratic centralism. The 1975 book "Elections Without Choice" contained a chapter on elections in Communist Party States written by A Pravda
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Post by melthamhd94nn on Jun 16, 2021 15:41:33 GMT
Alex Pravda is a fellow of St Antony's College, Oxford and a prolific writer on Soviet and East European studies.
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 16, 2021 15:52:08 GMT
Alex Pravda is a fellow of St Antony's College, Oxford and a prolific writer on Soviet and East European studies. I know, but it's still amusing.
I have a copy of Radkey's "Russia Goes to the Polls" which covers the Constituent Assembly election of 1917. Well worth a read.
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Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2021 16:09:34 GMT
A councillor who defects very soon after having been elected should at least repay the costs of his election to the party he has defected from, otherwise that could be construed as fraud - I am not aware of any case law on this, but it would be interesting to test it. There have been a couple of cases in Hampshire in the last decade or so of people elected as LibDems almost immediately joining the Conservatives. It is complicated in some cases though: members 'Parties' like the Andover Alliance discovering after they are elected that they hate each other more than their opponents for example. It could only be construed as fraud by a blithering nincompoop with no common sense.
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Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2021 16:13:10 GMT
I wonder if anyone remembers the Communist Party tradition, shared by other far left parties, in which all its elected representative was subject to 'recall'. Any candidates likely to be elected would have to sign an undated letter of resignation, which was kept by the party. If the representative got in, and then stepped out of line, the party would put a date on the letter and send it in. I think that I remember Francis Urquhart doing that, but I didn’t realise that he was a Communist.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jun 16, 2021 16:23:45 GMT
I wonder if anyone remembers the Communist Party tradition, shared by other far left parties, in which all its elected representative was subject to 'recall'. Any candidates likely to be elected would have to sign an undated letter of resignation, which was kept by the party. If the representative got in, and then stepped out of line, the party would put a date on the letter and send it in. I think that I remember Francis Urquhart doing that, but I didn’t realise that he was a Communist. It's also a plot point in 'In The Loop'. Oops, spoiler ...
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 16, 2021 16:42:05 GMT
5 weeks ago he campaigned to do all the things you said, and then suddenly changed his mind? This isn't somebody 6 months or a year out of the election. As for hypocrisy, my view on defectors standing in by-elections has been consistent, even when faced with intemperate response, not that I would ever accuse you of such an approach. You are one of the Good Guys CL and I like you and that was intemperate and rude and directed at that whole attitude to politics and not at you 'the person'. However, you are owed an apology and I freely offer it to you. I am out of comfort and out of sorts over a number of personal and national issues. I let it spill this morning. I am over it now, possibly because I do that sort of thing? I write it out of my system and exercise my personal catharsis. I don't let things fester. I expunge them. I still feel that many of you are failing to note the dichotomy between that type of censorious view and the desire to convert on the doorstep? They are really quite incompatible. And I thought we elected a person as a representative? Not a coloured marker for a party on the chessboard. That same person is still there doing the same job to the same degree of care (or incompetence?) as before, about the same local problems and potholes and dog shit. Nothing has changed other than your annoyance. If you want to have a go at things, consider how the party chooses and vets and questions and trains and monitors its candidates! Lesson there for us all. I see no real harm other than internal party carelessness. Perhaps the party should leaflet the electors with an abject apology for putting him up? My main current worry is not incompetence (consider that to be a given) laziness (ditto) or quitting/defecting, it is the mindless support of destroying my whole way of life without a word of protest. Damn party loyalty. I want a bit of representation. No one seems to want to represent the total anti-Lockdowners. Apology accepted. We will agree to disagree on this matter. I am making a rich stew right now, several hours on a low heat in the oven to go and will be having a not too small glass of Glenfiddich to go with it on this, my one evening off in the working week. I expect to nod off in front of the football. Have a good evening all.
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 16, 2021 16:44:29 GMT
I think that I remember Francis Urquhart doing that, but I didn’t realise that he was a Communist. It's also a plot point in 'In The Loop'. Oops, spoiler ... Beggar... I was thinking of watching that.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,047
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Post by peterl on Jun 16, 2021 17:53:36 GMT
A councillor who defects very soon after having been elected should at least repay the costs of his election to the party he has defected from, otherwise that could be construed as fraud - I am not aware of any case law on this, but it would be interesting to test it. There have been a couple of cases in Hampshire in the last decade or so of people elected as LibDems almost immediately joining the Conservatives. It is complicated in some cases though: members 'Parties' like the Andover Alliance discovering after they are elected that they hate each other more than their opponents for example. It could only be construed as fraud by a blithering nincompoop with no common sense. As a law graduate, I would agree a conviction for fraud is unlikely. The insults however are not nessecary. Not everyone on this forum is a legal expert.
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