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Post by tonygreaves on Jan 2, 2013 19:44:52 GMT
Yes of course!
Tony Greaves
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Post by Devonian on Mar 2, 2014 12:03:25 GMT
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,844 
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Post by Crimson King on Mar 2, 2014 12:44:07 GMT
They are doomed…...
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 2, 2014 13:23:53 GMT
The ad server is coming up trumps again - there is now one for " 26 prophetic events in exact sequence Before Christ's return!". I'm pretty certain that one of these was David Owen coming back to the Labour party.  |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 2, 2014 21:26:24 GMT
The ad server is coming up trumps again - there is now one for " 26 prophetic events in exact sequence Before Christ's return!". I'm pretty certain that one of these was David Owen coming back to the Labour party. The Prodigal Son? The Parable of Agreeable Claret Into Old Bottles? The Parable of the Tree and Its Fruits matches quite well too... |
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 2, 2014 22:23:48 GMT
The ad server is coming up trumps again - there is now one for " 26 prophetic events in exact sequence Before Christ's return!". I'm pretty certain that one of these was David Owen coming back to the Labour party. The Prodigal Son? The Parable of Agreeable Claret Into Old Bottles? The Parable of the Tree and Its Fruits matches quite well too... ah, you're confusing parables with prophetic events. You'll have to watch the video if you are not to be mislead by false prophets... |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 23:18:30 GMT
I feel a visceral punch in the stomach at the news that Ed Miliband has been taking soundings from David Owen and respects him. A pompous, self-aggrandising splitter (yep, a phrase I haven't used in decades). I was happy with plenty who came back but, when it comes to my views on Dr Owen, I am surprised at my gut feeling of contempt.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Mar 3, 2014 7:58:48 GMT
I feel a visceral punch in the stomach at the news that Ed Miliband has been taking soundings from David Owen and respects him. A pompous, self-aggrandising splitter (yep, a phrase I haven't used in decades). I was happy with plenty who came back but, when it comes to my views on Dr Owen, I am surprised at my gut feeling of contempt. David Owen is one of my least favourite politicians, too, but at least in this case, he has actually returned when the original issue which caused him to leave (OMOV) has been resolved. Too bad it took Labour 33 years to discover democracy. |
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Post by justin124 on Mar 3, 2014 11:18:53 GMT
Why should the SDLP have made such a difference? They only fight Northern Ireland seats.
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Post by thirdchill on Mar 3, 2014 12:47:08 GMT
I feel a visceral punch in the stomach at the news that Ed Miliband has been taking soundings from David Owen and respects him. A pompous, self-aggrandising splitter (yep, a phrase I haven't used in decades). I was happy with plenty who came back but, when it comes to my views on Dr Owen, I am surprised at my gut feeling of contempt. I am an absolute party loyalist and yes, David Owen was and is arrogant. But it always angers me when people blame the SDP split for Labour's massive defeat in 1983; the only party to blame for that was Labour. I'm happy to welcome him back into the fold. They also presume (by looking at percentage changes in 1983) that all the SDP/Liberal Alliance was due to people changing to them from labour. It wasn't, it was far more complex than that. Plenty of Labour supporters did switch to them, but quite a few did switch to the conservatives, especially those who benefited from the 'right to buy' policy. On the flip side, a large number of previous conservative supporters on the left of the party voted for the Alliance in 1983. On the subject of David Owen, many labour people didn't see him as a great loss at that time. Many saw Shirley Williams leaving the party as a worse blow. However Owen did say years ago he would support labour if they made this change. They've made it and he has said he supports labour now. |
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Post by justin124 on Mar 3, 2014 13:02:09 GMT
I have often wondered why people such as Shirley Williams and the late Roy Jenkins failed to return to Labour given that the policies which caused them to depart - Europe and Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament - were changed 25 years ago!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 14:05:31 GMT
I am being misunderstood, I am expressing my surprise at how I fel about David Owen; I am happy to welcome back Shirley Williams, Bill Rodgers and any others, as I have all those others who returned.
Without question, I am sure we were heading for defeat in 1983, although the Falklands had some say in that.
As for 'lefties' being more full of hatred than others, I didn't use that word and never would, although I qccept that 'contempt' is a srong word.
By the by, I would love to be able to vote SDLP.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,940
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Post by The Bishop on Mar 3, 2014 16:28:20 GMT
Polls showed that most "Alliance" voters in 1983 would have had Tory as their second choice (which drives home just how unpopular Labour was to most voters then)
By 1987 they were evenly split, and come 1992 even the somewhat smaller group still voting LibDem clearly preferred Labour.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,033
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Post by Sibboleth on Mar 3, 2014 18:32:46 GMT
I think for a lot of people the issue is more that the departure of Owen et al actually intensified the Labour Civil War, which was the main reason for the Party being about as electable as a park bench drunk by 1983.
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Post by justin124 on Mar 3, 2014 18:48:53 GMT
'David Owen should be cheered to the rafters by your lot for stopping our best chance of removing the socialists from being one of the main two parties.'
When exactly is he supposed to have done that?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Mar 3, 2014 18:50:37 GMT
Owen had actually tried to launch a fightback against the increasing left activism, at the 1980 Labour Party Conference (but didn't get very far). But the departure of the SDP members in 1981 made it doubly difficult for the moderate side to fight: not only were they deprived of allies, they were also likely to face claims by the left that their own loyalty was suspect - together with demands for loyalty oaths etc.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 19:06:31 GMT
Long term he did you lot a favour though. Maybe 1983 without the SDP would only have been a moderate tory victory and you would have carried down the leftist path for a while longer.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Mar 3, 2014 19:58:45 GMT
This thread started 15 months ago with a report of eight possible/ potential/ imagined defections from Conservative to UKIP (!!)
The 2010-2015 parliament has been a strange one in many ways - is it also notable (to date at least) for the low level of parliamentary defection?
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,844
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Post by Crimson King on Mar 3, 2014 23:28:27 GMT
This thread started 15 months ago with a report of eight possible/ potential/ imagined defections from Conservative to UKIP (!!) The 2010-2015 parliament has been a strange one in many ways - is it also notable (to date at least) for the low level of parliamentary defection? how many defections in the last few parliaments? |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Mar 3, 2014 23:45:31 GMT
Difficult to be precise about defections. There has to be an element of voluntariness, either before or after the fact, to distinguish a defection from an expulsion. I would say:
5 in 1997-2001: Dennis Canavan, Tommy Graham, Ken Livingstone, Peter Temple-Morris, Shaun Woodward. Charles Wardle doesn't count
5 in 2001-2005: Jeffrey Donaldson, George Galloway, Andrew Hunter, Robert Jackson, Paul Marsden (counts as one). David Burnside and Rev Martin Smyth don't count as they resigned the whip as a tactic and then returned. Howard Flight, Jonathan Sayeed, and Ann Winterton don't count.
5 in 2005-2010: Quentin Davies, Lady Hermon, Andrew Pelling, Bob Spink, and Robert Wareing. David Chaytor, Derek Conway, Jim Devine, Elliot Morley and Iris Robinson dosn't count.
1.5 in 2010-: Patrick Mercer. Arguably Nigel Evans. Mike Hancock doesn't count due to continuing close ties with the party. Nadine Dorries, Eric Illsley, Eric Joyce, Denis MacShane and David Ward don't count.
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