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Post by uthacalthing on Jul 26, 2024 10:39:25 GMT
You might not get it back. And getting it back is likely to entail some grovelling that you find really humiliating.
I will be surprised if they all get the whip back. Ending MccDonnell's career is a fairly cost-free gesture of power and authority for Starmer.
I also think that it is arguably in Starmer's long-term interest to create a hard-left party that acts as a magnet for people he wants rid of, but that would be a dangerous game, they potentially become Labour's Reform.
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Post by stb12 on Jul 26, 2024 10:43:52 GMT
Select committees haven’t been set up yet, could losing the whip so early cause them potential issues with getting onto them?
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 26, 2024 10:48:03 GMT
They won't need to grovel, just behave themselves. And parliament is going to be in recess a fair amount in the next six months.
McDonnell is almost certainly retiring at the next GE anyway, like Abbott. And as I said upthread, they probably weren't expecting this to happen and won't welcome it.
My understanding is that Starmer doesn't want to create such a party, precisely for the reasons you mention. How is it in Labour's interest to have a *serious* rival to its left electorally who are not the Greens? This is the macho stuff supposed "Labour sources" briefing right wing newspapers come out with, not serious people.
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Post by matureleft on Jul 26, 2024 10:49:25 GMT
Do you think that the whips failed to explain the consequence of their actions? Or, I suppose an alternative, that they chose not to interact with the whips? Even if they were told quite explicitly by the whips what would happen, it is surely far from impossible the MPs in question concluded that they were saying that in order to "encourage" people - especially the substantial new Labour intake - into compliance, and they were bluffing at the end of the day. You will of course have had more experience of their behaviour than most of us, did they "say what they mean and mean what they day" as a rule? McDonnell, an old hand, hasn't suggested that he was shocked at what happened? Rather he talks up the principled stand, as they claim, that they took and that it will pay off eventually in helping to persuade the government to move on this. So I'd imagine that a victory will be claimed when it eventually happens, as it will. I can't say that I tested out voting for an opposition amendment to the Queen's Speech (as was) to see what whips would say. My relatively mild rebellions seldom prompted much interest. Most happened in 2005-10. I'd said early I wouldn't stand again and declined the minor role on offer so there really was little leverage. I had some pressure exerted over extending the detention period but to no avail and with no consequence. A point on which Sultana's supposed ignorance of consequence may have resonance is that whips do concentrate on individuals. If you don't advertise what you are doing then they can miss you (and this is a new whips' team). And threats may be slightly guarded since the precise action might be influenced by the numbers rebelling. But I can't believe that anyone advertising their intention to act in this way wouldn't have been told that it would have serious consequences - the 6 month suspension might not have been explicit.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 26, 2024 10:52:59 GMT
Does a six month exile mean the 7 MPs can't attend the Labour conference, as official delegates at any rate? That might prove an inconvenience to them.
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Post by matureleft on Jul 26, 2024 10:57:17 GMT
Does a six month exile mean the 7 MPs can't attend the Labour conference, as official delegates at any rate? That might prove an inconvenience to them. They remain party members but they couldn’t have an ex-officio ticket.
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Crimson King
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Post by Crimson King on Jul 26, 2024 12:16:35 GMT
You might not get it back. And getting it back is likely to entail some grovelling that you find really humiliating. I will be surprised if they all get the whip back. Ending MccDonnell's career is a fairly cost-free gesture of power and authority for Starmer. I also think that it is arguably in Starmer's long-term interest to create a hard-left party that acts as a magnet for people he wants rid of, but that would be a dangerous game, they potentially become Labour's Reform. not quite what I was getting at, or to put it another way why would they want it back? To start to answer my own question, presumably they would not get any jobs that were in the gift of the party (I know Imran Hussain had some pps job or other), and if it was not returned would make then ineligible for selection (but that is a long way off and moot for some of them) I presume there is some convenience in having someone else tell you what is going on, and what is (to your former party) important, but otherwise is it really a hardship?
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Post by gibbon on Jul 26, 2024 14:16:40 GMT
At some time in the future there will be reshuffles and some ministers will depart and others will tak their places. Losing the whip makes it more likely that those who have had the whip withdrawn will spend the rest of this Parliament on the back benches, not be appointed to select committees and when there are Parliamentary trips abroad be excluded from them. They will be expeceted to take part in all future votes and not get paired with opposition members. They may also find some difficulty getting reasonable sized offices in Parliament.
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Post by greatkingrat on Jul 26, 2024 14:20:48 GMT
At some time in the future there will be reshuffles and some ministers will depart and others will tak their places. Losing the whip makes it more likely that those who have had the whip withdrawn will spend the rest of this Parliament on the back benches, not be appointed to select committees and when there are Parliamentary trips abroad be excluded from them. They will be expeceted to take part in all future votes and not get paired with opposition members. They may also find some difficulty getting reasonable sized offices in Parliament. I very much doubt any of the suspended members were expecting to be offered ministerial roles anyway!
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Post by matureleft on Jul 26, 2024 14:31:24 GMT
At some time in the future there will be reshuffles and some ministers will depart and others will tak their places. Losing the whip makes it more likely that those who have had the whip withdrawn will spend the rest of this Parliament on the back benches, not be appointed to select committees and when there are Parliamentary trips abroad be excluded from them. They will be expeceted to take part in all future votes and not get paired with opposition members. They may also find some difficulty getting reasonable sized offices in Parliament. They are all re-elected MPs so they should be able to keep the offices they had. If they want to get the Whip back they’ll need to vote appropriately but without the aid of reminders. The probability of not being on a select committee (if they wanted to be - not all do). They were all pretty much set for 4-5 years on the backbenches. But do they actually want the Whip back?
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Jul 26, 2024 14:54:07 GMT
If they want to get the Whip back they’ll need to vote appropriately but without the aid of reminders. I'm quite sure the whip sheet can (and will) be passed to them should they ask, or at least which way to vote on a particular amendment to the XXXX Bill.
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Post by matureleft on Jul 26, 2024 15:23:28 GMT
Maybe. But that depends on the level of goodwill on both sides, based on a genuine intent to rejoin the PLP. And you'll see that I have my doubts on that!
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Post by uthacalthing on Jul 26, 2024 15:28:57 GMT
Surely there are seven distinct cases?
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Post by batman on Jul 26, 2024 15:33:26 GMT
Indeed. I would for example be surprised if Imran Hussain wants to be permanently exiled from the PLP.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 26, 2024 17:01:09 GMT
Indeed. I would for example be surprised if Imran Hussain wants to be permanently exiled from the PLP. Apart from Begum, he has a far better chance than any of the others of holding his seat as an Independent should it come to that.
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Jul 26, 2024 18:20:02 GMT
At some time in the future there will be reshuffles and some ministers will depart and others will tak their places. Losing the whip makes it more likely that those who have had the whip withdrawn will spend the rest of this Parliament on the back benches, not be appointed to select committees and when there are Parliamentary trips abroad be excluded from them. They will be expeceted to take part in all future votes and not get paired with opposition members. They may also find some difficulty getting reasonable sized offices in Parliament. They are all re-elected MPs so they should be able to keep the offices they had. If they want to get the Whip back they’ll need to vote appropriately but without the aid of reminders. The probability of not being on a select committee (if they wanted to be - not all do). They were all pretty much set for 4-5 years on the backbenches. But do they actually want the Whip back? unless they pass them to them too....it was said that when Osamor had the whip suspended earlier this year, she still got the whips' briefings even if she was whip-less.
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Post by redtony on Jul 26, 2024 20:28:47 GMT
yes they do even if it only means being able to attend speak and vote at PLP meetings There is a petition circulating to reinstate them Most of the SCG still have the Whip
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2024 20:38:33 GMT
On a more serious note, what are the practical disadvantages of having the whip withdrawn? It very much depends upon from whence it is withdrawn and the speed and violence of such a withdrawal?
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Jul 26, 2024 20:50:20 GMT
On a more serious note, what are the practical disadvantages of having the whip withdrawn? It very much depends upon from whence it is withdrawn and the speed and violence of such a withdrawal? Ask the 1992 Rainbow Alliance candidate for Streatham?
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johnloony
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Post by johnloony on Jul 26, 2024 20:55:20 GMT
It very much depends upon from whence it is withdrawn and the speed and violence of such a withdrawal? Ask the 1992 Rainbow Alliance candidate for Streatham? There wasn’t one - do you mean the Natural Law Party?
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