CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jul 24, 2024 0:00:27 GMT
I can see arguments that are convincing as to why suspension was right but voting for the SNP one is not one. There was a certain Gaza motion the SNP proposed that 50 Labour MPs backed and made our lives hard and sometimes scary for 9 months. Leaflets encouraging people to protest outside our office because 'you can't hide you voted for genocide'. Being chased in the street, shouted at by people on the doorstep, etc. thousands of emails saying the same. Somehow this feels very trivial. Reread your own post - the SNP put forward a motion on Gaza that led to protests, threats and obscene accusations of genocide-support. Of course the whips are not going to be forgiving of those who vote for an SNP motion when Labour colleagues suffered such horrendous abuse and bullying.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Jul 24, 2024 0:14:57 GMT
I can see arguments that are convincing as to why suspension was right but voting for the SNP one is not one. There was a certain Gaza motion the SNP proposed that 50 Labour MPs backed and made our lives hard and sometimes scary for 9 months. Leaflets encouraging people to protest outside our office because 'you can't hide you voted for genocide'. Being chased in the street, shouted at by people on the doorstep, etc. thousands of emails saying the same. Somehow this feels very trivial. Reread your own post - the SNP put forward a motion on Gaza that led to protests, threats and obscene accusations of genocide-support. Of course the whips are not going to be forgiving of those who vote for an SNP motion when Labour colleagues suffered such horrendous abuse and bullying. Labour colleagues suffered abuse and bullying due to the biaised position of Starmer in the aftermath of the event, mainly.
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,651
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jul 24, 2024 0:48:54 GMT
Reread your own post - the SNP put forward a motion on Gaza that led to protests, threats and obscene accusations of genocide-support. Of course the whips are not going to be forgiving of those who vote for an SNP motion when Labour colleagues suffered such horrendous abuse and bullying. Labour colleagues suffered abuse and bullying due to the biaised position of Starmer in the aftermath of the event, mainly. As somebody who witnessed the campaigning in Blackburn constituency, which was dishonest, ethnically-targeted, and vile, may I suggest you are not necessarily the best-placed to be aware of the situation on the ground. It was far worse for women, as I witnessed. You cannot blame Kier Starmer for such misogyny.
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Post by stb12 on Jul 24, 2024 1:00:20 GMT
Reread your own post - the SNP put forward a motion on Gaza that led to protests, threats and obscene accusations of genocide-support. Of course the whips are not going to be forgiving of those who vote for an SNP motion when Labour colleagues suffered such horrendous abuse and bullying. Labour colleagues suffered abuse and bullying due to the biaised position of Starmer in the aftermath of the event, mainly. I think according to yourself Starmer is responsible for every negative outcome and feature in the entire world
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 24, 2024 6:01:23 GMT
I can see arguments that are convincing as to why suspension was right but voting for the SNP one is not one. There was a certain Gaza motion the SNP proposed that 50 Labour MPs backed and made our lives hard and sometimes scary for 9 months. Leaflets encouraging people to protest outside our office because 'you can't hide you voted for genocide'. Being chased in the street, shouted at by people on the doorstep, etc. thousands of emails saying the same. Somehow this feels very trivial. Reread your own post - the SNP put forward a motion on Gaza that led to protests, threats and obscene accusations of genocide-support. Of course the whips are not going to be forgiving of those who vote for an SNP motion when Labour colleagues suffered such horrendous abuse and bullying. reread my post. That was my point. But thanks it's good of you to explain my own experience to me
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Harry Hayfield
Green
Cavalier Gentleman (as in 17th century Cavalier)
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Jul 24, 2024 6:28:16 GMT
Labour to Independent after having the whip suspend for having voted for the SNP's amendment of 2 child cap: Apsana Begum Richard Burgon Ian Byrne Imran Hussain Rebecca Long Bailey John McDonnell Zarah Sultana Their status will be reviewed after 6 months Well, that did not take long did it I say! Majority down from actual 172 to 158 (calculated 182 to 168)
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r34t
Non-Aligned
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Post by r34t on Jul 24, 2024 6:58:29 GMT
It's not about the 2 child cap, or about the SNP. It's about the message. Labour may have a massive majority but breaking the whip has consequences, even in a honeymoon period. not convinced, plenty of governments have massive majorities. Rebelling isn't then instantly suspension Having seen the high level of centralised control during the GE I'm convinced ......
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2024 7:56:46 GMT
Labour colleagues suffered abuse and bullying due to the biaised position of Starmer in the aftermath of the event, mainly. I think according to yourself Starmer is responsible for every negative outcome and feature in the entire world 100 per cent of dancers suspended from Strictly have been suspended since he became prime minister. The man is a monster.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 24, 2024 8:22:09 GMT
None of them are any great loss to Labour, about 12 brain cells between the lot of them, and most of those are McDonnell's. Quite frankly these idiots need to be reminded that if you campaign upon and get elected on a programme for government, it's not really acceptable to then turn around and vote against it. I’m not sure I can agree with that last sentence. Being a supporter of a political party doesn’t mean you have to agree with every policy and every word written in its most recent manifesto. In fact I’m surprised it wasn’t someone on the Labour benches who tabled the amendment. It makes one wonder if a precedent is being set here, so early in the life of this parliament. Is this going to be a “do as I say or else” kind of government? Blair didn’t take this kind of action at this stage - he saw the dissent coming and knew the usual suspects - the famous awkward squad. If your measure is going to be passed by over 200 votes anyway, what’s the fuss about? Starmer needed to distance himself from the taint of Corbynism and overt anti semitism and he did it firmly and quickly with a stamp of old fashioned party authority about it. I commend him for that and in his quite ruthless hounding of 'bad elements' as his majority faction would see it and term it. It caused significant but rather surprisingly minor factionalism amongst the usual suspects and a narrow demographic. The party will be very much the benefactors from that necessary shift even if some demographic is lost to them, because it will show a plain reopening to more important, more British and larger demographics that they have sorely missed. Now he is staking out the need for conformity, unity and discipline in what had become a party riven by small coteries of licensed 'irregulars' to do their own thing. One cannot have that in a party that actually wants to 'do' things rather than to merely posture, emote and just endlessly talk about them. At the beginning of an administration one must expect all to sing from the same hymnal all of the time, especially with matters in a first King's Speech and in a Manifesto. Being a Labour MP is not to be Poseur and a dilettante with it all being abut the tender feelings and conscience of the member, it is about cohesive policy, solidarity and 'the Party' and the Nation. It is not about them, and it is most certainly NOT about foreign causes of no context to and no specific interest to Britain and the real British. An MP more concerned about Palestine and being nasty to Israel has no place in that party at all. The emphasis has to be 100% on British issues and the British people; on the NHS, on Education, on Crime and prisons, on Poverty, and on Housing. Just for the present all foreign issues are irrelevant to the Party, to the National Interest and most certainly to the British electorate. Politicians more concerned with the primary issue of Palestine have no business in that party or for me in this country.
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 24, 2024 8:52:10 GMT
.....government is about choices and priorities. They’d prefer to be part of a protest movement. I hope so....
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 24, 2024 8:54:16 GMT
It's not about the 2 child cap, or about the SNP. It's about the message. Labour may have a massive majority but breaking the whip has consequences, even in a honeymoon period. not convinced, plenty of governments have massive majorities. Rebelling isn't then instantly suspension Well! It should be. 14-years out of power. Debate on a first King's Speech. Policy in the first Manifesto. A deliberate spoiler amendment by the SNP. Members who are there solely because of the money, organization, hard work and the brand 'Labour'. If they had stood as principled independents they would have had no support from the electorate. They absolutely owe their support to the party on such occasions. Attlee was correct. The party offer the help and protection and demands response to the whip. That whip demanded attendance and a positive vote. To deny it this early, to the hated enemy spoiler action, over such a trivial matter, is posturing dilettantism and for me worthy of complete expulsion 'to discourage the others'. This is not a Woolworths Pik N' Mix counter, it is the advent of a serious Labour Administration. get real and get sensible. The Adults are in charge again, at last, and the children do as they are told again, at last.
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 24, 2024 9:11:34 GMT
not convinced, plenty of governments have massive majorities. Rebelling isn't then instantly suspension Well! It should be. 14-years out of power. Debate on a first King's Speech. Policy in the first Manifesto. A deliberate spoiler amendment by the SNP. Members who are there solely because of the money, organization, hard work and the brand 'Labour'. If they had stood as principled independents they would have had no support from the electorate. They absolutely owe their support to the party on such occasions. Attlee was correct. The party offer the help and protection and demands response to the whip. That whip demanded attendance and a positive vote. To deny it this early, to the hated enemy spoiler action, over such a trivial matter, is posturing dilettantism and for me worthy of complete expulsion 'to discourage the others'. This is not a Woolworths Pik N' Mix counter, it is the advent of a serious Labour Administration. get real and get sensible. The Adults are in charge again, at last, and the children do as they are told again, at last. well aboard comrade
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Jul 24, 2024 9:14:40 GMT
not convinced, plenty of governments have massive majorities. Rebelling isn't then instantly suspension Well! It should be. 14-years out of power. Debate on a first King's Speech. Policy in the first Manifesto. A deliberate spoiler amendment by the SNP. Members who are there solely because of the money, organization, hard work and the brand 'Labour'. If they had stood as principled independents they would have had no support from the electorate. They absolutely owe their support to the party on such occasions. Attlee was correct. The party offer the help and protection and demands response to the whip. That whip demanded attendance and a positive vote. To deny it this early, to the hated enemy spoiler action, over such a trivial matter, is posturing dilettantism and for me worthy of complete expulsion 'to discourage the others'. This is not a Woolworths Pik N' Mix counter, it is the advent of a serious Labour Administration. get real and get sensible. The Adults are in charge again, at last, and the children do as they are told again, at last. Every so often I nod along to your posts in broad agreement and it's always a strange feeling inside.
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Post by matureleft on Jul 24, 2024 9:42:02 GMT
.....government is about choices and priorities. They’d prefer to be part of a protest movement. I hope so.... And fair enough if so, but they shouldn’t stand for a party seeking to provide a government.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 24, 2024 9:46:02 GMT
And fair enough if so, but they shouldn’t stand for a party seeking to provide a government. Electoral reform is needed - I'm just not into 'serious government'. I don't believe them!
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 24, 2024 9:50:22 GMT
They could easily have picked one of their number- McDonnell would be ideal- to speak, and then abstained. With a speech along the lines of:
"I and other colleagues disagree with the cap. However, this is not a legislative matter but a budget matter. We have just worked to install a Labour chancellor and we must give her time to set a course without SNP games. However, the government must understand the force of our concern on the topic, and we are abstaining to indicate our disagreement on the matter. We will not allow a Labour government to be defeated on a King's Speech that we have worked towards".
No drama, get the message across, little for Starmer to have to react to.
But then, that isn't what they were aiming for.
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Jul 24, 2024 9:55:13 GMT
Zarah S has just announced that she is the victim of "a macho virility test" - of Starmer, presumably. I don't think she's going back to Labour. And that's a Labour gain.
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Post by matureleft on Jul 24, 2024 9:55:27 GMT
And fair enough if so, but they shouldn’t stand for a party seeking to provide a government. Electoral reform is needed - I'm just not into 'serious government'. I don't believe them! And we agree on that. But I fear until that happens we must operate using the current imperfect system.
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graham
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Post by graham on Jul 24, 2024 9:59:49 GMT
Corbyn - and the other Independents - has shown that the party machine can be beaten. With hindsight, it looks highly likely that Abbott would have been re-elected had she stood as an Independent.Corbyn now has a group of potentially 8 supporters - plus the Muslim Independents elected at the GE.At some point, might we see Corbyn -supported Independents standing at by elections when they come along?
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 24, 2024 10:11:03 GMT
Electoral reform is needed - I'm just not into 'serious government'. I don't believe them! And we agree on that. But I fear until that happens we must operate using the current imperfect system. Yes. 33% for Labour, with a huge majority. They will win, but I think dissent is important.
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