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Post by stb12 on Apr 29, 2024 8:45:20 GMT
Nokes had a couple of spells as a minister under Theresa May. I know the likely response to that is to criticise May’s judgement but would that have been likely if she‘s really that far away from Tory mainstream?
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ricmk
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Post by ricmk on Apr 29, 2024 8:49:13 GMT
Conversations like the above are amusing to most non-Tories (I mean that in the broader sense, rather than current allegiance) who see this government as incredibly right wing. Indeed, just today we have a widely trailed announcement that they are going to target people on disability benefits. What is "centrist" about that? That's the real astonishing thing about this period of Tory Government. They've somehow convinced the likes of you and me that they are incredibly right-wing, nationalist, and authoritarian, and the likes of rcronald that they are wet liberals who have betrayed the true right Conservatives. All at the same time. That's some achievement, surely to be rewarded at the General Election?
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Post by stb12 on Apr 29, 2024 8:50:38 GMT
Conversations like the above are amusing to most non-Tories (I mean that in the broader sense, rather than current allegiance) who see this government as incredibly right wing. Indeed, just today we have a widely trailed announcement that they are going to target people on disability benefits. What is "centrist" about that? That's the real astonishing thing about this period of Tory Government. They've somehow convinced the likes of you and me that they are incredibly right-wing, nationalist, and authoritarian, and the likes of rcronald that they are wet liberals who have betrayed the true right Conservatives. All at the same time. That's some achievement, surely to be rewarded at the General Election? I come at this totally from a non-party perspective but would that not indicate that maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle?
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The Bishop
Labour
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Post by The Bishop on Apr 29, 2024 8:55:56 GMT
Indeed, but a successful party (eg New Labour in its hegemonic period) uses that in a positive sense to win support from both sides.
When a party is unpopular, it works more to repel both wings - as indeed is happening with the Tories now.
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rcronald
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Post by rcronald on Apr 29, 2024 8:59:58 GMT
Conversations like the above are amusing to most non-Tories (I mean that in the broader sense, rather than current allegiance) who see this government as incredibly right wing. Indeed, just today we have a widely trailed announcement that they are going to target people on disability benefits. What is "centrist" about that? That's the real astonishing thing about this period of Tory Government. They've somehow convinced the likes of you and me that they are incredibly right-wing, nationalist, and authoritarian, and the likes of rcronald that they are wet liberals who have betrayed the true right Conservatives. All at the same time. That's some achievement, surely to be rewarded at the General Election? Hardline rhetoric and 0 actual (enforceable) legislation is a sure way to anger both sides. Politicians should act like Teddy Roosevelt, speak softly and carry a big stick.
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Post by stb12 on Apr 29, 2024 9:04:52 GMT
Conversations like the above are amusing to most non-Tories (I mean that in the broader sense, rather than current allegiance) who see this government as incredibly right wing. Indeed, just today we have a widely trailed announcement that they are going to target people on disability benefits. What is "centrist" about that? I’m sceptical of both sides of this coin. Calling the party left-wing seems like an overly purist and inward looking view, but many of their opponents also seem to push this idea of them being borderline fascist as a default. I remember hearing lines about ‘the most right wing government since X date’ as far back as 2010 even though they were having to work with the Lib Dems at that time I guess it’s just how party politics works but I think it can be unappealing to non-party people
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Post by matureleft on Apr 29, 2024 9:26:49 GMT
That's the real astonishing thing about this period of Tory Government. They've somehow convinced the likes of you and me that they are incredibly right-wing, nationalist, and authoritarian, and the likes of rcronald that they are wet liberals who have betrayed the true right Conservatives. All at the same time. That's some achievement, surely to be rewarded at the General Election? Hardline rhetoric and 0 actual (enforceable) legislation is a sure way to anger both sides. Politicians should act like Teddy Roosevelt, speak softly and carry a big stick. You are correct. The government’s approach (pretty much from 2019) has been to make a lot of noise but not deliver. That was true of the Brexit negotiations as well - allowing Frost to shout a lot, but then bungle the negotiations disappointing the ultras who had been encouraged by Frost. The same over the nonsense over the ECHR which has been going on throughout this parliament. Loads of noise but nothing done. Migration pretty much the same. And even culture wars stuff - let Anderson loose as a party vice-chairman but then (as ultras would see) push him under the bus. The effect is that the rhetoric upsets your natural opponents and your ‘one nation’ internationalist Tories (those who haven’t abandoned ship or been pushed overboard) and raises hopes among the nativists. Then those hopes are dashed through either lack of will or incompetence, or both. This approach to politics both upsets your base and your softer friends as well as giving ammo to your opponents. Regrettably it also means pretty poor governance for everyone.
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ilerda
Conservative
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Post by ilerda on Apr 29, 2024 10:16:51 GMT
Nokes had a couple of spells as a minister under Theresa May. I know the likely response to that is to criticise May’s judgement but would that have been likely if she‘s really that far away from Tory mainstream? 1. Under May especially, but often more generally, top level position were awarded more on personal connection than ideological alignment. 2. It's very common to put more outspoken or difficult people into government roles to stop them from causing trouble by speaking out on other issues and generally being a nuisance. Think tents and different directions of urination.
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Apr 29, 2024 14:47:43 GMT
Well lucky for us, there's a proven record of big sticks being used to hit protesters, LGBT+ people, immigrants, and now with today's announcement, the disabled. So as Bish says, if this isn't right wing, I don't know what to call it!
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Apr 29, 2024 14:53:50 GMT
Hardline rhetoric and 0 actual (enforceable) legislation is a sure way to anger both sides. Politicians should act like Teddy Roosevelt, speak softly and carry a big stick. You are correct. The government’s approach (pretty much from 2019) has been to make a lot of noise but not deliver. That was true of the Brexit negotiations as well - allowing Frost to shout a lot, but then bungle the negotiations disappointing the ultras who had been encouraged by Frost. The same over the nonsense over the ECHR which has been going on throughout this parliament. Loads of noise but nothing done. Migration pretty much the same. And even culture wars stuff - let Anderson loose as a party vice-chairman but then (as ultras would see) push him under the bus. The effect is that the rhetoric upsets your natural opponents and your ‘one nation’ internationalist Tories (those who haven’t abandoned ship or been pushed overboard) and raises hopes among the nativists. Then those hopes are dashed through either lack of will or incompetence, or both. This approach to politics both upsets your base and your softer friends as well as giving ammo to your opponents. Regrettably it also means pretty poor governance for everyone. It's a government of "be careful what you wish for". They did deliver Brexit and haven't known what to do with it.
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Post by heslingtonian on Apr 29, 2024 16:13:46 GMT
Conversations like the above are amusing to most non-Tories (I mean that in the broader sense, rather than current allegiance) who see this government as incredibly right wing. Indeed, just today we have a widely trailed announcement that they are going to target people on disability benefits. What is "centrist" about that? That's the real astonishing thing about this period of Tory Government. They've somehow convinced the likes of you and me that they are incredibly right-wing, nationalist, and authoritarian, and the likes of rcronald that they are wet liberals who have betrayed the true right Conservatives. All at the same time. That's some achievement, surely to be rewarded at the General Election? Yes, while I have left the Party due to the reasons you give (as have many others I know personally including former Conservative MPs and Parliamentary candidates), simultaneously I've friends who were active in the Party who have left as they believe the Party is too moderate on social issues. It's quite an achievement to lose support on both wings simultaneously.
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Post by heslingtonian on Apr 29, 2024 16:16:00 GMT
As an aside, I really don't understand why Caroline Nokes is such an unpopular figure for some on here. Is it all to do with transgender issues which I'd rather were not inherently Party political issues?
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Post by Strontium Dog on Apr 29, 2024 16:18:52 GMT
The Tories are centrist because they tax us like left-wingers, and spend like right-wingers.
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rcronald
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Post by rcronald on Apr 29, 2024 16:38:22 GMT
As an aside, I really don't understand why Caroline Nokes is such an unpopular figure for some on here. Is it all to do with transgender issues which I'd rather were not inherently Party political issues? I don’t know about the others, but at least for me it’s not about trans rights.
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mrtoad
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Post by mrtoad on Apr 29, 2024 16:42:15 GMT
David Butler, who voted for all the main (England) parties in his time, said that both the Conservatives and Labour had approached him in the 1950s or 1960s to see if he wanted to stand as a candidate. He felt he agreed with Labour about more things, but the Conservative offer was more attractive because they were so much less doctrinaire, and having a non-standard opinion would be tolerated rather than getting an MP into trouble. Butler didn't ponder the offers too long: he preferred to stay independent and in academia and journalism. His best friends in parliament were Peter Blaker and Tony Benn, and I think he probably maintained a position of political equidistance between the two as long as they lived.
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Post by matureleft on Apr 29, 2024 18:06:07 GMT
The 2019 Tory manifesto involved a massive gamble (with us all). If they could offer a clean Brexit yet economic and public service policies that reassured hesitant Brexit-favouring Labour voters they could collect votes from the traditional right and left and stuff an anyway divided and directionless Labour. The small price, or so it seemed, was sacrificing Europhile and economically liberal Tories.
But.
1. The programme was necessarily vague. Turning this into a 4-5 year programme of government would be hard 2. It relied on benevolent economic circumstances but first the Brexit uncertainties and then their reality didn't help, then COVID and then Russia invades Ukraine 3. It also relied on Johnson leading a charmed life in which his known weaknesses were managed or concealed. 4. And then it banked on the inherent contradictions being managed into some repeat performance in 2024, but with Brexit waning or even decaying as an influence
The solution was to do as I describe above - shout a lot, particularly on culture wars stuff (on the presumption that those were the Brexit substitute elixir with former Labour voters) but do little because actually delivering would both be very hard, and and have negative effects in terms of cost and economic impact. Truss's alternative slash at the Gordian knot was to ignore the fiscal and economic effects and just go for it. Sunak's has been to hope that a period of fairly dull governance will dim memories.
2019's offer was not perhaps quite fraudulent but it depended so much on (pretty unlikely) favourable economic circumstances and consequent fiscal comfort as to be so.
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rcronald
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Post by rcronald on Apr 29, 2024 18:21:01 GMT
The 2019 Tory manifesto involved a massive gamble (with us all). If they could offer a clean Brexit yet economic and public service policies that reassured hesitant Brexit-favouring Labour voters they could collect votes from the traditional right and left and stuff an anyway divided and directionless Labour. The small price, or so it seemed, was sacrificing Europhile and economically liberal Tories. But. 1. The programme was necessarily vague. Turning this into a 4-5 year programme of government would be hard 2. It relied on benevolent economic circumstances but first the Brexit uncertainties and then their reality didn't help, then COVID and then Russia invades Ukraine 3. It also relied on Johnson leading a charmed life in which his known weaknesses were managed or concealed. 4. And then it banked on the inherent contradictions being managed into some repeat performance in 2024, but with Brexit waning or even decaying as an influence The solution was to do as I describe above - shout a lot, particularly on culture wars stuff (on the presumption that those were the Brexit substitute elixir with former Labour voters) but do little because actually delivering would both be very hard, and and have negative effects in terms of cost and economic impact. Truss's alternative slash at the Gordian knot was to ignore the fiscal and economic effects and just go for it. Sunak's has been to hope that a period of fairly dull governance will dim memories. 2019's offer was not perhaps quite fraudulent but it depended so much on (pretty unlikely) favourable economic circumstances and consequent fiscal comfort as to be so. I agree to a certain extent, but there are some culturally conservative causes that are also pragmatic that really wouldn’t hurt the nation (I’m not talking about immigration), and the government simply screams at them without doing anything. The problem is that a lot of the Tory leadership is culturally liberal and simply larped as culturally conservative, you can’t properly govern if you don’t believe in the things that you promised.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 29, 2024 20:14:11 GMT
That's the real astonishing thing about this period of Tory Government. They've somehow convinced the likes of you and me that they are incredibly right-wing, nationalist, and authoritarian, and the likes of rcronald that they are wet liberals who have betrayed the true right Conservatives. All at the same time. That's some achievement, surely to be rewarded at the General Election? Hardline rhetoric and 0 actual (enforceable) legislation is a sure way to anger both sides. Politicians should act like Teddy Roosevelt, speak softly and carry a big stick. Even better is the advice of WC Fields. Always carry a flagon of whisky in case you get bitten by a snake. And carry a small snake.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 29, 2024 20:21:37 GMT
The Tories are centrist because they tax us like left-wingers, and spend like right-wingers. Unfortunately now that Starmer has joined the Tories and Lib Dems in backing the triple lock to the hilt, this will continue- and there is no alternative if you object to any aspect of this potentially eyewatering spending commitment.
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Post by matureleft on Apr 29, 2024 21:09:45 GMT
The 2019 Tory manifesto involved a massive gamble (with us all). If they could offer a clean Brexit yet economic and public service policies that reassured hesitant Brexit-favouring Labour voters they could collect votes from the traditional right and left and stuff an anyway divided and directionless Labour. The small price, or so it seemed, was sacrificing Europhile and economically liberal Tories. But. 1. The programme was necessarily vague. Turning this into a 4-5 year programme of government would be hard 2. It relied on benevolent economic circumstances but first the Brexit uncertainties and then their reality didn't help, then COVID and then Russia invades Ukraine 3. It also relied on Johnson leading a charmed life in which his known weaknesses were managed or concealed. 4. And then it banked on the inherent contradictions being managed into some repeat performance in 2024, but with Brexit waning or even decaying as an influence The solution was to do as I describe above - shout a lot, particularly on culture wars stuff (on the presumption that those were the Brexit substitute elixir with former Labour voters) but do little because actually delivering would both be very hard, and and have negative effects in terms of cost and economic impact. Truss's alternative slash at the Gordian knot was to ignore the fiscal and economic effects and just go for it. Sunak's has been to hope that a period of fairly dull governance will dim memories. 2019's offer was not perhaps quite fraudulent but it depended so much on (pretty unlikely) favourable economic circumstances and consequent fiscal comfort as to be so. I agree to a certain extent, but there are some culturally conservative causes that are also pragmatic that really wouldn’t hurt the nation (I’m not talking about immigration), and the government simply screams at them without doing anything. The problem is that a lot of the Tory leadership is culturally liberal and simply larped as culturally conservative, you can’t properly govern if you don’t believe in the things that you promised. Yes, there are some culturally conservative ideas that have no obvious economic or reputational consequences. Which ones were you thinking about? And you’re probably right - many of the key figures are uncomfortable in this territory. I wouldn’t describe them as exactly liberal in cultural terms but this isn’t a space that someone like Sunak enjoys.
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