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Post by aargauer on Feb 26, 2023 15:48:29 GMT
What happened to Berger was effectively equivalent to a case of constructive dismissal, which does change things significantly. Its still one thing to resign the whip, and another to join a different party.
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Post by aargauer on Feb 26, 2023 15:57:55 GMT
Sadly I have to partially agree with Daft Ha'porth that the Liberal Democrats are a party of the establishment (although I'm not convinced that the electorate, or 80% of them anyway, are looking for something different). In my 56 years in the Party there has usually been a conflict between the leadership and the membership, with the leadership clearly embracing the establishment. There was a long period from the late 60s into the 90s when the activist membership wrested control of the direction of the Party away from the leadership (credit to Tony Greaves), but ironically the election of Paddy Ashdown as leader (because he was seen as one of 'us' - the activist membership, and his subsequent schmoozing of Tony Blair was the start of the blunting of the radicalism of the Party. It briefly revived as a consequence of our opposition to the Iraq war, and declined further when Clegg became leader, only to be snuffed out by the Coalition and the departure/retirement of a high proportion of the radical activists. Of course there are still individuals and local council groups who are challenging the established way of doing things, but there is not that momentum within the Party as a whole. Of course we had to campaign against Brexit, but when we lost we should have been reaching out to those who had voted for it (and although racism was a part of it that wasn't the most important element) and listening to the reasons why they felt marginalised and powerless rather than doubling down on our opposition to the result, culminating in the ridiculous and undemocratic 'Revoke' campaign in 2019. Were we a radical party we would have long ago looked at the consequences of globalisation and recognised that the ways in which capitalism was developing meant that our traditional commitment to free trade was no longer appropriate and that resilience was more important than allowing our country to become dependent on potentially hostile powers for our basic necessities. The Conservatives, and to a lesser extent Labour when in power, have allowed our country's infrastructure to be bought up and controlled by people and countries which do not have our interests at heart, and by off-shoring our manufacturing base we have lost the skills that go along with that. No machine tool builders and operators, no ship builders, no miners, no steelworkers, no paper-makers (I'm aware this is a slight exaggeration, but it is the direction of travel). Thatcher's vision of a service economy has come to pass, but it is an economy built on sand. The Liberal Democrats should have spent the last 30 years recognising this and shouting it from the roof-tops, but they were too tied up with pointing at potholes to look at the bigger picture. I wish Tony Greaves was here to tell me that I'm wrong. A very interesting post tony. It was interesting and very well expressed, although it would be a liberal party I'd be even further from supporting!
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Post by batman on Feb 26, 2023 16:38:27 GMT
Why does Mike Gapes have to wait five years to rejoin and not Berger? 'Reasons'!! I don't think five years is the normal time that needs to elapse. I think it's 3 years, hence Luciana Berger rejoining at this point. I therefore think his return is likely to be sooner rather than later. Gapes's defection was quite surprising in the first place, he was regarded as quite a party loyalist up to then.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 26, 2023 17:28:33 GMT
I don't think five years is the normal time that needs to elapse. I think it's 3 years, hence Luciana Berger rejoining at this point. I therefore think his return is likely to be sooner rather than later. Gapes's defection was quite surprising in the first place, he was regarded as quite a party loyalist up to then. The Rule Book still says "When a person applies for re-admission to the Party following an expulsion by the NCC on whatever basis or by automatic exclusion under Chapter 2.4 above of the membership rules, the application shall be submitted to the NEC for consideration and decision. Subject to the provisions of guidance issued by the NEC, such applications shall not normally be considered by the NEC until a minimum of five years has elapsed." (Chapter 6, Clause 1.2)
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Post by aargauer on Feb 26, 2023 17:43:50 GMT
I don't think five years is the normal time that needs to elapse. I think it's 3 years, hence Luciana Berger rejoining at this point. I therefore think his return is likely to be sooner rather than later. Gapes's defection was quite surprising in the first place, he was regarded as quite a party loyalist up to then. The Rule Book still says "When a person applies for re-admission to the Party following an expulsion by the NCC on whatever basis or by automatic exclusion under Chapter 2.4 above of the membership rules, the application shall be submitted to the NEC for consideration and decision. Subject to the provisions of guidance issued by the NEC, such applications shall not normally be considered by the NEC until a minimum of five years has elapsed." (Chapter 6, Clause 1.2) How strictly is "normally" construed?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 26, 2023 17:58:17 GMT
I wonder if any of the other eight Labour/ChangeUK MPs will be rejoining shortly. Its easy to see the gain for Starmer from Berger feeling able to rejoin the party. (she was the one defector many mainstream Labour people felt some sympathy with for a reason) Less so with Angela "funny tinge" Smith or Gavin Shuker. As for the likes of L*s*i* or U*m*n* - don't get me started. Having said that, I do expect Mike Gapes to apply to rejoin on the very day his five years are finally up. Ummuna is too busy these days, advising the privatised Royal Mail that he objected to being privatised.
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Post by rcronald on Feb 26, 2023 18:07:02 GMT
Its easy to see the gain for Starmer from Berger feeling able to rejoin the party. (she was the one defector many mainstream Labour people felt some sympathy with for a reason) Less so with Angela "funny tinge" Smith or Gavin Shuker. As for the likes of L*s*i* or U*m*n* - don't get me started. Having said that, I do expect Mike Gapes to apply to rejoin on the very day his five years are finally up. Ummuna is too busy these days, advising the privatised Royal Mail that he objected to being privatised. Sounds like Chuka Umunna to me.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 26, 2023 22:38:01 GMT
that's not only not a very nice comment, given what she has had to endure, but as well as coming over as bitter it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Sometimes saying nothing is the best option. If you'd had to put up with even 1% of what she has had to put up with, perhaps you'd show a smidgen more understanding. I wouldn't have joined the Liberal Democrats or Change UK personally, but I have every sympathy for what drove her to seek a different political home and have never condemned her for standing against Labour, even though I personally could not have brought myself to do that. I think you misunderstand. I'm not bitter about this, I just think she used us as a vehicle to continue a political career which she could just as well have let gone into abeyance. Liverpool politics is utterly vile, on all sides, and she was at the heart of a machine that eviscerated friends of mine both politically and personally for many years so in the context of personal experience, she was always an unrepentant part of that. As for what she had to put up with at the hands of your party, I have nothing but empathy for. No-one should have to put up with racial discrimination in their party.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 26, 2023 22:39:56 GMT
Bullshit. And that's the problem with our political culture. The one established party that does not have any vested interest backing is the one party who has not been in power for over a century bar a brief period in coalition (and despite that, our non compromised by outside influence ordinary members agreed to the coalition, right or wrong). We might have been a party caught up in that disreputable stitch-up from 2010-15, but don't fall into the lie that we became party of that, FFS, if we did, we wouldn't have been slaughtered in 2015. If your party hadn't taken donations in the millions from Lord Sainsbury unril he defected back to Labohr in the past few weeks, I might have taken that a bit more seriously. Tell me what policy we have changed due to any donation. Just one will do.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 26, 2023 23:04:32 GMT
If your party hadn't taken donations in the millions from Lord Sainsbury unril he defected back to Labohr in the past few weeks, I might have taken that a bit more seriously. Tell me what policy we have changed due to any donation. Just one will do. Here's Lord Tordoff moving an amendment requiring that licensed driving instructors have ADI training, as urged by the British School of Motoring. By a striking coincidence the Joint Treasurer and a leading donor to the Liberal Party at the time was Anthony Jacobs, who was Chairman of the British School of Motoring. And later got a Peerage on a Liberal Democrat nomination.
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,326
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Post by CatholicLeft on Feb 26, 2023 23:10:20 GMT
If your party hadn't taken donations in the millions from Lord Sainsbury unril he defected back to Labohr in the past few weeks, I might have taken that a bit more seriously. Tell me what policy we have changed due to any donation. Just one will do. What pilicy did Labour change due to Lord Sainsbury's donations?
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 26, 2023 23:13:05 GMT
Tell me what policy we have changed due to any donation. Just one will do. What pilicy did Labour change due to Lord Sainsbury's donations? He wasn't changing policy but making it.
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Post by matureleft on Feb 27, 2023 6:05:22 GMT
that's not only not a very nice comment, given what she has had to endure, but as well as coming over as bitter it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Sometimes saying nothing is the best option. If you'd had to put up with even 1% of what she has had to put up with, perhaps you'd show a smidgen more understanding. I wouldn't have joined the Liberal Democrats or Change UK personally, but I have every sympathy for what drove her to seek a different political home and have never condemned her for standing against Labour, even though I personally could not have brought myself to do that. I think you misunderstand. I'm not bitter about this, I just think she used us as a vehicle to continue a political career which she could just as well have let gone into abeyance. Liverpool politics is utterly vile, on all sides, and she was at the heart of a machine that eviscerated friends of mine both politically and personally for many years so in the context of personal experience, she was always an unrepentant part of that. As for what she had to put up with at the hands of your party, I have nothing but empathy for. No-one should have to put up with racial discrimination in their party. “Used us”? That suggests no agency in the matter on the part of your party. From my limited knowledge your remarks about Liverpool politics are fair - it’s a rough culture in all parties. She wasn’t the author of that. I’d agree that any MP there would be at least either a comfortable or uncomfortable player in that culture. Are you claiming that she was an enthusiast?
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Post by mattbewilson on Feb 27, 2023 9:58:00 GMT
tbf as things go that was a pretty good policy
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 27, 2023 10:05:23 GMT
Wowee. An amendment to ensure that driving instructors are trained. The bounders. That certainly puts Ecclestone/cigarette advertising in the shade.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,813
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Feb 27, 2023 10:08:18 GMT
Well, dragging up something that happened a quarter of a century ago maybe tells its own story.
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 27, 2023 10:54:26 GMT
Well, dragging up something that happened a quarter of a century ago maybe tells its own story. The BSM example was from nearly 40 years ago.
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Post by gibbon on Feb 27, 2023 14:49:23 GMT
Will any of the ERG or the DUP have the courage to resign the whip if the proposed deal with the EU does not meet their expectations? If so, how many? Will the ERG wait until after the local elections to submit letters of no confidence in Sunak in revenge for being side-lined in the protocol talks?
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 27, 2023 21:59:47 GMT
I think you misunderstand. I'm not bitter about this, I just think she used us as a vehicle to continue a political career which she could just as well have let gone into abeyance. Liverpool politics is utterly vile, on all sides, and she was at the heart of a machine that eviscerated friends of mine both politically and personally for many years so in the context of personal experience, she was always an unrepentant part of that. As for what she had to put up with at the hands of your party, I have nothing but empathy for. No-one should have to put up with racial discrimination in their party. “Used us”? That suggests no agency in the matter on the part of your party. From my limited knowledge your remarks about Liverpool politics are fair - it’s a rough culture in all parties. She wasn’t the author of that. I’d agree that any MP there would be at least either a comfortable or uncomfortable player in that culture. Are you claiming that she was an enthusiast? Yes, used us as a flag of convenience. You are completely right that it is not one sided and certain people within our party were complicit in allowing that to happen, but I have no doubt that there is no other circumstances that she would have joined and that her standing for us was no real sign of commitment to the party (born out by what happened afterwards and has now come to pass). To be quite fair though, she was hardly alone in that band and it's telling how few of that crew have properly contributed to the party since. From Liverpool colleagues experiences, yes, she was an enthusiast.
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Post by aargauer on Feb 27, 2023 22:06:36 GMT
Will any of the ERG or the DUP have the courage to resign the whip if the proposed deal with the EU does not meet their expectations? If so, how many? Will the ERG wait until after the local elections to submit letters of no confidence in Sunak in revenge for being side-lined in the protocol talks? Why would the DUP resign the whip? Steve Baker seemed fairly enthusiastic about the deal - and he's not shy about complaining if he doesn't like something.
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