Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 31, 2021 8:37:23 GMT
But most of them follow the party whip and while I think that's the only way a party system can be maintained, I think your analysis is far too generous to the way politics actually works - or rather, doesn't! People always say that but it never occurs to them that maybe MPs follow the party whip because they agree with it (or at least don't strenuously object)? It's not like people stand for a party who's positions they always disagree with and then only vote with them because they get whipped into line I am much more sceptical than you. So, you had Emily Thornberry saying very clearly that we should leave the EU after the referendum when that was Labour's policy, but shifting position later as the party view changed.
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 31, 2021 9:03:00 GMT
But how would legislating for by-elections following defections distinguish between someone who jumped and someone who was pushed? The Indian legislation makes this distinction. A person loses his seat only when he voluntarily leaves the party or breaks whip but can remain a member if he is expelled/suspended by the party. This leads to situations where rebel MPs make more and more outrageous statements during the term of the house daring the party to expel them and set them free while the party leadership maintains restraint for the same reason. This is made more worse by incompetent/dishonest media failing to give the full context when these people give statements or participate in other political meetings. Oh No! Not "... more worse ..." The correct usage is 'worserer'.
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hengo
Conservative
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Post by hengo on Mar 31, 2021 9:48:24 GMT
The party system is the best compromise to enable coherent government with some degree of democratic accountability. Of course it has difficulties which mean that for some people it just doesn’t work. If I had seriously considered entering politics then my general views would have been to do so in the Conservative interest. However, as regards my own main area of interest - education- it is the party where I am least likely to be comfortable with its policies. So much so that colleagues and friends have been bemused at times when I have told them I have voted Conservative in past elections. As a voter , this seems to me to be perfectly acceptable- we make broad judgements across a range of policies as well as on the politicians concerned. But I could hardly put myself forward for election where , on the main area of my knowledge and experience , I hold views quite antithetical to those of the great majority of the party. So MPs should in general have accepted the compromise when they enter the game- on the whole I think it rather dishonourable to jump ship mid parliament without fighting a by-election. However any mechanism to force them to do so seems to have more negatives than positives.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Mar 31, 2021 11:48:11 GMT
Simplest solution for stopping defections would be banning political parties There are reasons why no democracies, save for a literal handful of micro-states, are without them.
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 31, 2021 11:48:58 GMT
The Indian legislation makes this distinction. A person loses his seat only when he voluntarily leaves the party or breaks whip but can remain a member if he is expelled/suspended by the party. This leads to situations where rebel MPs make more and more outrageous statements during the term of the house daring the party to expel them and set them free while the party leadership maintains restraint for the same reason. This is made more worse by incompetent/dishonest media failing to give the full context when these people give statements or participate in other political meetings. Was the ruling not introduced because of the unacceptably high level of party-hopping, though? I suppose it doesn't matter unless it affects who is in government, but people here do vote for parties in the main. The myth that they vote for individuals shouldn't be given credibility Whilst it's clear that the vast majority of voters vote for the party at General Elections (this is less clear at local elections), our FPTP system and virtually all of our election laws are built around assuming the opposite.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 31, 2021 12:03:32 GMT
Was the ruling not introduced because of the unacceptably high level of party-hopping, though? I suppose it doesn't matter unless it affects who is in government, but people here do vote for parties in the main. The myth that they vote for individuals shouldn't be given credibility Whilst it's clear that the vast majority of voters vote for the party at General Elections (this is less clear at local elections), our FPTP system and virtually all of our election laws are built around assuming the opposite. Which is why I think they make little sense.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Mar 31, 2021 16:46:24 GMT
Is that what’s under discussion here though? I thought we were talking about MPs who voluntarily choose to switch Party’s, inspired by the two moving from the SNP to Alba, rather than those expelled or left sans Party because it ceases to exist? But how would legislating for by-elections following defections distinguish between someone who jumped and someone who was pushed? Well I’m not actually advocating for by-elections, but usually a voluntary defector does so with great fanfare, press releases, media appearances, etc., whereas someone expelled from a Party is accompanied by protestations of innocence and a desire to clear their name and return to the fold.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Mar 31, 2021 16:53:08 GMT
Simplest solution for stopping defections would be banning political parties There are reasons why no democracies, save for a literal handful of micro-states, are without them.
Didn't say it was the right solution, just the simplest.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Apr 9, 2021 1:03:23 GMT
I mean, even the CHUKkers turned down Ian Austin...... I thought he got cold feet?
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Apr 9, 2021 1:18:54 GMT
I mean, even the CHUKkers turned down Ian Austin...... I thought he got cold feet? Neither, he was pro-Brexit, so...
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Harry Hayfield
Green
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Apr 20, 2021 19:41:22 GMT
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 20, 2021 21:01:48 GMT
oh ffs..
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Post by gibbon on Apr 21, 2021 10:22:35 GMT
Rarely do Ministers who resign from the Government resign their Party Whip. They usually remain on the backbenches and become members of the 'awkward squad'.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Apr 21, 2021 10:32:00 GMT
Rarely do Ministers who resign from the Government resign their Party Whip. They usually remain on the backbenches and become members of the 'awkward squad'. I suppose the only thing that could qualify that is that the Tory Whips currently seem to have a low tolerance threshold to dissent (Julian Lewis) so if Mercer votes against the government (I’m assuming the DUP have tabled an Amendment exempting soldiers who served in Northern Ireland from historical inquiries) he could find himself having the whip withdrawn, albeit temporarily.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 21, 2021 13:36:04 GMT
I don't think he would be that bothered. He's always struck me as very issue driven and not particularly partisan.
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 21, 2021 13:59:28 GMT
I don't think he would be that bothered. He's always struck me as very issue driven and not particularly partisan. He's previously said that he wouldn't necessarily vote Conservative if he wasn't a Conservative MP. Veterans rights is his reason for being in politics at all.
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Post by Strontium Dog on Apr 21, 2021 14:05:23 GMT
The right of veterans to get away with war crimes is certainly a strange hill to die on.
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 21, 2021 14:42:38 GMT
The right of veterans to get away with war crimes is certainly a strange hill to die on. An interesting juxtaposition of words there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2021 14:45:10 GMT
The right of veterans to get away with war crimes is certainly a strange hill to die on. Natural causes or suspicious circumstances ?
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Apr 21, 2021 15:21:16 GMT
The right of veterans to get away with war crimes is certainly a strange hill to die on. Maybe not when you’re a veteran who served in a battle zone, where, as Australia are finding out, behaviour wasn’t always what Ross Kemp likes to tell you.
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