J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,687
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Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 30, 2021 12:45:40 GMT
No that's a genuinely terrible idea. It would mean any party could do literally anything and there would be no recourse to the nuclear option by any sitting MP. MPs are elected as *individuals* not as a party emblem. Are they? How many people when polled say "I am voting for (surname of candidate)"? No, they say I am voting Conservative, I am voting Labour. But the *election* *system* elects *people* not parties. If you want candidates removed and replaced with elections for parties, go ahead and campaign for that. It's almost PR-ish, count how many people voted SDP, don't count how many people voted for Fred Smith.
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,040
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Post by ilerda on Mar 30, 2021 12:58:25 GMT
What about a jungle primary where as there is no restriction on the number of candidates per party, the party with the most cumulative votes wins, and the top ranked candidate from the party gets the seat. Then if they resign/retire/die they can be replaced with the next most voted candidate from that party and there's no need for a by-election.
Worst of both worlds!
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Post by johnloony on Mar 30, 2021 20:21:54 GMT
Somebody really needs to legislate so that all defections automatically trigger a by election Its honestly getting silly now this trend of crap MP's defecting to daft reject parties and wasting oxygen in the commons I'm no fans of theirs but at least Carswell and Reckless had the backbone to trigger by elections No way! That would stop defections almost completely and would result in awkward rebels staying inside a party which they don't want (and which doesn't want them) rebelling in votes multiple times.
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Post by rivers10 on Mar 30, 2021 21:48:14 GMT
Somebody really needs to legislate so that all defections automatically trigger a by election Its honestly getting silly now this trend of crap MP's defecting to daft reject parties and wasting oxygen in the commons I'm no fans of theirs but at least Carswell and Reckless had the backbone to trigger by elections No way! That would stop defections almost completely and would result in awkward rebels staying inside a party which they don't want (and which doesn't want them) rebelling in votes multiple times. I think if the public elect a Tory or a Labour MP they don't necessarily want somebody who will rebel and irritate said party all the time? And if they do they can support said rebel MP in the by election
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,049
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Post by maxque on Mar 30, 2021 22:05:18 GMT
No way! That would stop defections almost completely and would result in awkward rebels staying inside a party which they don't want (and which doesn't want them) rebelling in votes multiple times. I think if the public elect a Tory or a Labour MP they don't necessarily want somebody who will rebel and irritate said party all the time? And if they do they can support said rebel MP in the by election Here dies democracy. Welcome to the era of SpAds.
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Post by rivers10 on Mar 30, 2021 22:09:17 GMT
I think if the public elect a Tory or a Labour MP they don't necessarily want somebody who will rebel and irritate said party all the time? And if they do they can support said rebel MP in the by election Here dies democracy. Welcome to the era of SpAds. I cant speak for any other party but in Labour we've been in the era of SPADS for decades now and it's resulted in a PLP stuffed to the gills with tepid mush MP's who all threw a hissy fit the moment the party elected a leader they didn't like
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Mar 30, 2021 22:10:50 GMT
I think if the public elect a Tory or a Labour MP they don't necessarily want somebody who will rebel and irritate said party all the time? And if they do they can support said rebel MP in the by election Here dies democracy. Welcome to the era of SpAds. I think one thing is when and how often you rebel; if you’re a serial rebel, let’s use Jeremy Corbyn as the numbers speak for themselves, the Whips and Ministers factor his rebellion into their calculations, whereas if you are usually loyal and rebel rarely it has more impact, particularly when in government.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Mar 30, 2021 22:20:15 GMT
Here dies democracy. Welcome to the era of SpAds. I think one thing is when and how often you rebel; if you’re a serial rebel, let’s use Jeremy Corbyn as the numbers speak for themselves, the Whips and Ministers factor his rebellion into their calculations, whereas if you are usually loyal and rebel rarely it has more impact, particularly when in government. And then there are "performance rebels" who will rebel when they know the legislation will pass anyway, but be loyal on a close vote when it might actually make a difference.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Mar 30, 2021 22:26:03 GMT
Somebody really needs to legislate so that all defections automatically trigger a by election Its honestly getting silly now this trend of crap MP's defecting to daft reject parties and wasting oxygen in the commons I'm no fans of theirs but at least Carswell and Reckless had the backbone to trigger by elections This has been discussed umpteen times on here. And pretty well every time it ends up with agreement that it is the honourable thing to do but that the practicalities make it a non-starter as a requirement.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 30, 2021 22:41:09 GMT
Here dies democracy. Welcome to the era of SpAds. I cant speak for any other party but in Labour we've been in the era of SPADS for decades now and it's resulted in a PLP stuffed to the gills with tepid mush MP's who all threw a hissy fit the moment the party elected a leader they didn't like And it's left Labour with a remarkably uninspiring range of MPs
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,877
Member is Online
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Post by jamie on Mar 30, 2021 22:49:10 GMT
I think it’s perfecly reasonable to point out that most MPs have a negligible personal vote with the vast, vast majority of people just voting based on party. Nonetheless, giving political parties the power to remove any of their own MPs from Parliament at a moments notice sounds absolutely horrific.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Mar 30, 2021 22:57:14 GMT
I think it’s perfecly reasonable to point out that most MPs have a negligible personal vote with the vast, vast majority of people just voting based on party. Nonetheless, giving political parties the power to remove any of their own MPs from Parliament at a moments notice sounds absolutely horrific. Is that what’s under discussion here though? I thought we were talking about MPs who voluntarily choose to switch Party’s, inspired by the two moving from the SNP to Alba, rather than those expelled or left sans Party because it ceases to exist?
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 31, 2021 0:07:38 GMT
I think it’s perfecly reasonable to point out that most MPs have a negligible personal vote with the vast, vast majority of people just voting based on party. Nonetheless, giving political parties the power to remove any of their own MPs from Parliament at a moments notice sounds absolutely horrific. Is that what’s under discussion here though? I thought we were talking about MPs who voluntarily choose to switch Party’s, inspired by the two moving from the SNP to Alba, rather than those expelled or left sans Party because it ceases to exist? But how would legislating for by-elections following defections distinguish between someone who jumped and someone who was pushed?
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Post by ibfc on Mar 31, 2021 4:22:13 GMT
Is that what’s under discussion here though? I thought we were talking about MPs who voluntarily choose to switch Party’s, inspired by the two moving from the SNP to Alba, rather than those expelled or left sans Party because it ceases to exist? But how would legislating for by-elections following defections distinguish between someone who jumped and someone who was pushed? The Indian legislation makes this distinction. A person loses his seat only when he voluntarily leaves the party or breaks whip but can remain a member if he is expelled/suspended by the party. This leads to situations where rebel MPs make more and more outrageous statements during the term of the house daring the party to expel them and set them free while the party leadership maintains restraint for the same reason. This is made more worse by incompetent/dishonest media failing to give the full context when these people give statements or participate in other political meetings.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Mar 31, 2021 6:30:20 GMT
Simplest solution for stopping defections would be banning political parties, but as this is never going to happen we must allow MPs and other elected officials to listen to the elctors and to think for themselves not just be whipped lobby fodder. If that means they defect in a way I don't like, so be it, I can always vote them out the time. For me it's a no to automatic by-elections if someone defects. Parties are too draconian on obedience as it is, automatic by-elections would just make it worse.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 31, 2021 6:50:41 GMT
But how would legislating for by-elections following defections distinguish between someone who jumped and someone who was pushed? The Indian legislation makes this distinction. A person loses his seat only when he voluntarily leaves the party or breaks whip but can remain a member if he is expelled/suspended by the party. This leads to situations where rebel MPs make more and more outrageous statements during the term of the house daring the party to expel them and set them free while the party leadership maintains restraint for the same reason. This is made more worse by incompetent/dishonest media failing to give the full context when these people give statements or participate in other political meetings. Was the ruling not introduced because of the unacceptably high level of party-hopping, though? I suppose it doesn't matter unless it affects who is in government, but people here do vote for parties in the main. The myth that they vote for individuals shouldn't be given credibility
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,040
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Post by ilerda on Mar 31, 2021 7:20:07 GMT
Only having a by-election if the MP jumps, rather than being pushed, could very easily lead to a situation where the MP functions as an independent (or even a member of another party) in terms of their communication with the public and media, and refuses to follow the whip of the party they technically belong to, but simply refuses to notify the House authorities of a change in their party designation.
They could even do a dramatic Phillip Lee and cross the floor in the middle of a sitting. Or make a grand speech denouncing and quitting their party on the steps of Westminster. But until they made it official to the Clerk it would be technically meaningless.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,628
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Post by European Lefty on Mar 31, 2021 8:11:17 GMT
You also have to allow for the fact that MPs are representatives not delegates. You don't elect someone to do exactly as you say who then polls or consults their constituents before every parliamentary vote. Candidates stand on a combination of their party's policies, their own beliefs and the nature of their constituency , people vote for the candidate who they fell will best represent them. The MP then casts votes based on party policy, their own views, their constituents' views if they are overwhelmingly pro- or anti-something, and their own best judgement on what the most sensible policy to follow is. MPs are not mindless robots
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 31, 2021 8:16:43 GMT
You also have to allow for the fact that MPs are representative snot delegates. You don't elect someone to do exactly as you say who then polls or consults their constituents before every parliamentary vote. Candidates stand on a combination of their party's policies, their own beliefs and the nature of their constituency , people vote for the candidate who they fell will best represent them. The MP then casts votes based on party policy, their own views, their constituents' views if they are overwhelmingly pro- or anti-something, and their own best judgement on what the most sensible policy to follow is. MPs are not mindless robots But most of them follow the party whip and while I think that's the only way a party system can be maintained, I think your analysis is far too generous to the way politics actually works - or rather, doesn't!
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,628
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Post by European Lefty on Mar 31, 2021 8:18:46 GMT
You also have to allow for the fact that MPs are representative snot delegates. You don't elect someone to do exactly as you say who then polls or consults their constituents before every parliamentary vote. Candidates stand on a combination of their party's policies, their own beliefs and the nature of their constituency , people vote for the candidate who they fell will best represent them. The MP then casts votes based on party policy, their own views, their constituents' views if they are overwhelmingly pro- or anti-something, and their own best judgement on what the most sensible policy to follow is. MPs are not mindless robots But most of them follow the party whip and while I think that's the only way a party system can be maintained, I think your analysis is far too generous to the way politics actually works - or rather, doesn't! People always say that but it never occurs to them that maybe MPs follow the party whip because they agree with it (or at least don't strenuously object)? It's not like people stand for a party who's positions they always disagree with and then only vote with them because they get whipped into line
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