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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 8:17:39 GMT
For once this is not an election about Cosmo Elites against the rest. This article is bilk: www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/29/brazil-jair-bolsonaro-presidential-electionthis was plain old corruption and law and order. The public massively rejected the rewarmed collection of corruptos that are the PT. The PT was not offering some Liberal wonderland, it was offering one of the most insecure and unequal economic systems on the planet. Journalists need to realise that there is more than one hymnbook to sing from these days. Mexico turned Left this year and Argentina threw out a corrupt and crime-ridden "populist" regime in 2016. Latin America read through European, or even North American, prisms is a faulty reading. |
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 8:21:33 GMT
Compulsory voting, and the choice limited to two candidates both unpalatable in their way, what do you expect? With !3 candidates in the first round the public had tons of candidates to vote for of all different flavours. If enough didn't vote for them then that's another matter. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Oct 29, 2018 8:46:39 GMT
But in France Le Pen is extreme; in Latin America Pinochet is well with the historic norm. (Also, I think Chirac's corruption levels were still well below those of PT) |
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 8:57:14 GMT
But in France Le Pen is extreme; in Latin America Pinochet is well with the historic norm. (Also, I think Chirac's corruption levels were still well below those of PT) For those who have not seen it "The Mechanism" on Netflix is a great exposition on the early beginnings of the exposure of the Lavajata matter which has led (in part) to this current result.. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 29, 2018 9:22:03 GMT
The idea that the PT is any more corrupt than the Brazilian norm is unfiltered propaganda.
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 9:30:27 GMT
The idea that the PT is any more corrupt than the Brazilian norm is unfiltered propaganda. It was the scale that changed..... the combination of the Pre-salt discoveries and Wall Street's love-in with Lula opened a veritable global treasure chest for PT politicians (and their cross-party collaborators). |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 29, 2018 10:15:14 GMT
Does he realise, do you think, that Brazil has had a military dictatorship within living memory? He's not stupid, he must know the history of the country. Of course he knows, given that he repeatedly cited Bolsonaro's liking for the past military regime during the campaign. Tbh one does find the relentless Jones-bashing on here a tad tedious, I understand why many don't like what he has to say (and I can certainly take issue with some of his past positioning on various things) but he is not a moron and I suspect much of the flak he gets is because he dares to defy the cosy centre-right media consensus. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 29, 2018 10:18:38 GMT
He's not stupid, he must know the history of the country. Of course he knows, given that he repeatedly cited Bolsonaro's liking for the past military regime during the campaign. Tbh one does find the relentless Jones-bashing on here a tad tedious, I understand why many don't like what he has to say (and I can certainly take issue with some of his past positioning on various things) but he is not a moron and I suspect much of the flak he gets is because he dares to defy the cosy centre-right media consensus. No. It is not. It really is because he is a complete Twerp and the attention he receives for his low level garbage is the absurdity. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2018 10:21:26 GMT
The idea that the PT is any more corrupt than the Brazilian norm is unfiltered propaganda. Uhh...the PT nominated a presidential candidate who was literally in jail for corruption. That's not near the norm, even by Brazilian standards. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 29, 2018 10:26:49 GMT
The idea that the PT is any more corrupt than the Brazilian norm is unfiltered propaganda. Uhh...the PT nominated a presidential candidate who was literally in jail for corruption. That's not near the norm, even by Brazilian standards. In the opinion of many, on fabricated politically motivated charges. Indeed, some suggest it would never have happened had polls not suggested Lula could have won..... |
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Post by Antiochian on Oct 29, 2018 10:29:26 GMT
Uhh...the PT nominated a presidential candidate who was literally in jail for corruption. That's not near the norm, even by Brazilian standards. In the opinion of many, on fabricated politically motivated charges. Indeed, some suggest it would never have happened had polls not suggested Lula could have won..... .... look it up.... Lula was as bent as a corkscrew |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 29, 2018 10:30:04 GMT
I suspect a lot more people would be upset at the fascist victory in Brazil, if people like Owen hasn't already spent 5 years hysterically shrieking about fascist victories in America, Italy, Austria, Poland, , Hungary, etc. He's the boy who cried wolf. Well he's not crying wolf now..
The Brazilian people, or least those who voted for 21st Century Fascism, have done exactly what Germany did in 1933 and look where that led.
Well of course we go through this on a fairly regular basis, but the people of Germany didn't vote for Hitler to be Chancellor in 1933 - he had to be chosen. The Nazi party vote actually declined in the last election.
Although of course other systems are not guaranteed to prevent this sort of thing, a presidential system almost guarantees these Manichean choices from time to time. Although party leaders still feature strongly, electing administrations rather than individuals as head of government has distinct advantages. Figureheads can even lose their seats.
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 29, 2018 10:32:24 GMT
Uhh...the PT nominated a presidential candidate who was literally in jail for corruption. That's not near the norm, even by Brazilian standards. In the opinion of many, on fabricated politically motivated charges. Indeed, some suggest it would never have happened had polls not suggested Lula could have won..... I suspect he could well have won, especially if he was fighting charges rather than actually being inside. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2018 10:36:36 GMT
Unfortunately it's that kind of disregard for the law that has fed Bolsonaro's surge.
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Post by beastofbedfordshire on Oct 29, 2018 10:43:20 GMT
Brazil - uncucked
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 11:00:24 GMT
But in France Le Pen is extreme; in Latin America Pinochet is well with the historic norm. (Also, I think Chirac's corruption levels were still well below those of PT) is Le Pen more extreme than Bolsonaro? Genuine question |
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 29, 2018 11:09:05 GMT
In the opinion of many, on fabricated politically motivated charges. Indeed, some suggest it would never have happened had polls not suggested Lula could have won..... I suspect he could well have won, especially if he was fighting charges rather than actually being inside. I would go further. If he had been free to stand Lula would have won easily I have no doubt. The charges against him were not entirely fabricated, and he had been unwise in some decisions so had some questions to answer, but the reason why he was in gaol was almost entirely down to the fact that in an open election he would have walked it. |
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 29, 2018 11:12:52 GMT
But in France Le Pen is extreme; in Latin America Pinochet is well with the historic norm. (Also, I think Chirac's corruption levels were still well below those of PT) is Le Pen more extreme than Bolsonaro? Genuine question No. Le Pen is not in the same league. (Neither Le Pen) |
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 29, 2018 13:01:29 GMT
I suspect a lot more people would be upset at the fascist victory in Brazil, if people like Owen hasn't already spent 5 years hysterically shrieking about fascist victories in America, Italy, Austria, Poland, , Hungary, etc. He's the boy who cried wolf. The parties in Austria and Poland are far right (albeit not majority-fascist), and one of the governing ones in Italy is too. Bolsonaro's just an alpha wolf on a completely unprotected farm in this context. Perhaps the lesson is that if you force voters to choose between only socialism or barbarism, barbarism wins...so don't force that choice! In this case, the choice was not forced. There was a whole spectrum of candidates to pick from, and the final two selected were an economically centre-left politician and Bolsonaro. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2018 13:19:51 GMT
I suspect a lot more people would be upset at the fascist victory in Brazil, if people like Owen hasn't already spent 5 years hysterically shrieking about fascist victories in America, Italy, Austria, Poland, , Hungary, etc. He's the boy who cried wolf. The parties in Austria and Poland are far right (albeit not majority-fascist), and one of the governing ones in Italy is too. Bolsonaro's just an alpha wolf on a completely unprotected farm in this context. Austria's PM, Sebastian Kurz, is from the ÖVP which sits in the EPP group at Strasburg which is itself a more moderate politcal group than that the British Prime Minister sits in. Perhaps you're thinking the government is run by the minority coalition partner, in the same way that we ran the UK govt 2010-2015?  The point is, I'm seeing the following, repeated in dozens of threads in my social media streams today: Leftist: This is a disaster! Many people will die! Bolsonario is an actual fascist!
Unaligned: You said that about Trump.
Leftist: No this is different - Bolsonario is an *actual* fascist.
Unaligned: Yeh, that's literally what you said about Trump.
Leftist: Uhh... Well, okay, admittedly I was being a bit alarmist about that, but this is for real.
Unaligned: So why should I take you seriously this time? I'm gonna wait and see what he does first.I hope there's a lesson for political commentators here somewhere. Finally, this is a country where there are over 50,000 murders a year - many of them innocent by-standers to gang-warfare. Parties of the Left were evidently unwilling or unable to deal with that. In that context, the voters in Brazil have concluded that electing a Robocop who will inevitably cause collateral damage in the fight-back is worthwhile, and will save lives in the long-run. I don't like it but I understand why they've done it. It might even work. Western liberals need to understand that the thought of machine-gun toting cops shooting up the neighbourhood once a month isn't that scary to people living in places where gangs do it every fucking night. |
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