timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 1, 2018 23:02:13 GMT
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 1, 2018 23:04:11 GMT
I have met rather a lot of people whose charge sheet looked rather similar to Simon Thomas' (including some who were very middle class.) I met them because I worked in a prison. A lot of the mitigating factors cited here applied in those cases also. At the most generous interpretation, he is a very lucky man. And a not dissimilar point could be made on the Haringey thread, arguably. |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 1, 2018 23:05:57 GMT
Tim, trust me when I tell you that these guidelines are not being consistently followed. |
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 1, 2018 23:15:34 GMT
Tim, trust me when I tell you that these guidelines are not being consistently followed. I didn’t say they were, I can flip your argument and cite one person in elected office who’s conviction was above the level of Thomas’. The point I was trying to make is that these sentences aren’t randomly plucked out of the air as some seem to suggest, and unlike the judge, none of us (I assume) have had sight of the pre-sentence reports on which every judge, in any case, is supposed to base sentencing on. Equally, as I said earlier, there doesn’t seem to be any mention of what sentence the CPS were seeking based on the evidence in front of them. Based on sentencing locally in recent months, and I’ve found some 45 convictions reported in our local paper for September, Thomas’ seems extremely consistent. |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 1, 2018 23:26:54 GMT
Tim, trust me when I tell you that these guidelines are not being consistently followed. I didn’t say they were, I can flip your argument and cite one person in elected office who’s conviction was above the level of Thomas’. The point I was trying to make is that these sentences aren’t randomly plucked out of the air as some seem to suggest, and unlike the judge, none of us (I assume) have had sight of the pre-sentence reports on which every judge, in any case, is supposed to base sentencing on. Equally, as I said earlier, there doesn’t seem to be any mention of what sentence the CPS were seeking based on the evidence in front of them. Based on sentencing locally in recent months, and I’ve found some 45 convictions reported in our local paper for September, Thomas’ seems extremely consistent. I think we may be at cross-purposes, the problem I am most concerned with is that there are people serving time for non-violent crimes who are sentenced at a different level from those who have committed crimes which have caused more serious harm, which is true in this case. The images downloaded by him are of sufficient seriousness as to require appropriate punishment, whatever the pre-sentence reports say? There is a terrible inconsistency in the way in which different crimes are dealt with and, believe me, where you come from and your educational background makes a difference. I am not being anecdotal, I have spent over a quarter of a century working in and around prisons. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Nov 2, 2018 6:24:34 GMT
This casw highlights the need to change the definition of 'making' as used in the legislation. Anyone without a legal background would naturally assume that he'd 'made' the 77 films etc rather than simply 'made' them.
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 2, 2018 8:06:20 GMT
This casw highlights the need to change the definition of 'making' as used in the legislation. Anyone without a legal background would naturally assume that he'd 'made' the 77 films etc rather than simply 'made' them. Not a mistake I am making. He searched for, chose, downloaded and retained these images/films. |
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Nov 2, 2018 8:29:08 GMT
This casw highlights the need to change the definition of 'making' as used in the legislation. Anyone without a legal background would naturally assume that he'd 'made' the 77 films etc rather than simply 'made' them. Not a mistake I am making. He searched for, chose, downloaded and retained these images/films. So you don't see a distinction between copying, viewing and keeping, and the original creation of those films? |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 2, 2018 8:36:30 GMT
Not a mistake I am making. He searched for, chose, downloaded and retained these images/films. So you don't see a distinction between copying, viewing and keeping, and the original creation of those films? Where do I suggest that? I am simply stating what ''making' means in the definition of the offence, and that that is something I understand. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Nov 2, 2018 9:11:47 GMT
It's a fair point that most people probably assume "making" an image or film means being the person who creates it initially, not who creates a copy of an image originally created by another - but I'm sure the law is making a moral point in using that term.
There is an interesting jurisprudential point in this over whether computer files are property. When the first computer hacking case was prosecuted in 1985 there was no such offence and the prosecution was for forgery - it argued that putting fake login details into Prestel caused the Prestel server to forge a piece of data giving the user access. This concept was eventually overturned on appeal, I think, by which time there was a specific offence of unauthorised access to a computer system.
Remember that possession of printed pornography was never an offence until 2008 (child abuse images were illegal but still not until 1978). The law tried to counter the spread of pornography through criminalising publication only, not possession. The offence of 'making' an image is essentially that of an offender publishing it for himself, which sort of continues that principle.
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cefin
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Post by cefin on Nov 2, 2018 19:57:49 GMT
Well they shouldn't then should they? As pointed out everyone seems to have mitigating circumstances even those with scores of previous convictions. They should be judged and sentenced according to the crime. So you would do away with sentencing guidelines, which are drawn up by a Standing Committee of the Home Office, senior judiciary, police, probation, healthcare (usually mental healthcare) completely and leave it to each individual judge to pluck a random sentence out of thin air based on nothing more than their personal feelings on the day? Yes and I would introduce statutory minimum sentencing for all offences. It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. |
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 2, 2018 20:06:24 GMT
So you would do away with sentencing guidelines, which are drawn up by a Standing Committee of the Home Office, senior judiciary, police, probation, healthcare (usually mental healthcare) completely and leave it to each individual judge to pluck a random sentence out of thin air based on nothing more than their personal feelings on the day? Yes and I would introduce statutory minimum sentencing for all offences. It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. If you knew anything about what you talk you’d know there already is a statutory minimum (and maximum) sentence for all crimes, the question for each judge is to set a tariff within that bandwidth. If you read the Sentencing Council guidelines I posted earlier you’d see that Thomas was about 20% above the minimum, probably accounted for by his cooperation with the police and immediate guilty plea. In regards to your second paragraph, no. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Nov 2, 2018 20:08:53 GMT
So you would do away with sentencing guidelines, which are drawn up by a Standing Committee of the Home Office, senior judiciary, police, probation, healthcare (usually mental healthcare) completely and leave it to each individual judge to pluck a random sentence out of thin air based on nothing more than their personal feelings on the day? Yes and I would introduce statutory minimum sentencing for all offences. It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. Are you living in Somalia? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 2, 2018 22:39:33 GMT
Yes and I would introduce statutory minimum sentencing for all offences. It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. Are you living in Somalia? Crime is well out of control in Wales. It's easy to get involved. Just Dial M for Merthyr. I'll get my ceredigion. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Nov 2, 2018 23:40:51 GMT
Yes and I would introduce statutory minimum sentencing for all offences. It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. Are you living in Somalia? No but we could organise a whip round to send the cretin there! |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 3, 2018 10:43:55 GMT
I’m troubled by the sentence in this case, I don’t think it’s anywhere near severe enough. This kind of abuse is seemingly endemic in this country and the men who have these perversions won’t be put off by a 26wk suspended sentence. Personally, I think they should be held indefinitely in some kind of hospital.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Nov 3, 2018 12:48:46 GMT
This casw highlights the need to change the definition of 'making' as used in the legislation. Anyone without a legal background would naturally assume that he'd 'made' the 77 films etc rather than simply 'made' them. Not a mistake I am making. He searched for, chose, downloaded and retained these images/films. As outlined by other posters, it is a mistake that would easily be made by pretty much everybody. My point stands. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 3, 2018 12:54:54 GMT
Not a mistake I am making. He searched for, chose, downloaded and retained these images/films. As outlined by other posters, it is a mistake that would easily be made by pretty much everybody. My point stands. I don't doubt it; Kwas making clear that my views weren't based on this misunderstanding. |
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Post by greenchristian on Nov 3, 2018 23:24:48 GMT
It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. Because that approach works so well in the US... |
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cefin
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Post by cefin on Nov 4, 2018 10:11:47 GMT
It must be clear to even you that surely the criminals are running out of control in this country for the lack of fear of any effective reprisals from authority. Far from listening to the bleatings of the politicians and the bleeding heart brigade about too many people going to prison we need a massive prison building programme and the prison population needs to increase significantly until crime is brought under control. The first duty of any state is to protect it's citizens and this is clearly not happening due to the actions of those on high who falsely proclaim ( and perhaps even delusionally believe) that they know better. Lock em up and enhance all our lives. Because that approach works so well in the US... And the approach of this country in seeing criminals in court with scores and often hundreds of previous convictions and still handing out the jokes that are suspended sentences and community orders to these people is working so well isn't it? With crime soaring out of control at what point do you judge someone with 85 previous convictions is not actually going to change their behaviour and are essentially 'A Bad Un'? The 5th time they are found guilty in court? the 14th time? the 37th time? the 55th time? Lets help them avoid the 56th time. You of course can speak to them and try and reform them whilst they carry on laughing their heads off at the bleeding heart mob. Or they can be dervedly locked up to protect society at large and the general public not only suffereing from the ever increasing crime spreees directly or the rest of the population taking the financial hit to insurance premiums, shop prices covering shoplifting losses, damage to public property picked up by council tax and national tax payers. When we've reached a stage where honest hard working shop and business owners have to watch the shoplifters steal from them with impunity from the police as long as the thiefs lift less than £200 worth of goods from the shelves of already struggling businesses and this appears to be condoned by pleas not to lock them up by certain political observers. Then there is something seriously wrong with those views. |
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