piperdave
SNP
Dalkeith; Midlothian/North & Musselburgh
Posts: 911
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Post by piperdave on Oct 3, 2018 21:24:47 GMT
I wouldn't really consider having two ballot papers to really be an issue to be honest, just so long as things are clearly labelled enough so that the electorate knows what it is they're voting for. Experience from Scotland shows that substantial numbers of people are not capable of following simple and clear instructions on ballot papers. When they had the constituency candidates and the regional party lists on the same ballot paper (I think it was 2007), there were several hundred spoilt votes (sometimes well over a thousand) per constituency because people voted for two candidates in the constituency - even though the instructions were very clear in saying that voters had two votes: one in the constituency over here and one in the list over here. I have no problem in disenfranchising such people on grounds of stupidity. Experience in one election, where the ballot papers were combined on a single sheet instead of separate papers as at every other SP election. The Gould report into the problems at that election noted the percentage of spoiled ballots were significantly higher in the Glasgow and Lothian regions because the RROs altered the instructions by removing the arrows directing where votes shoudl be marked so that the large number of regional lists and candidates could fit on a particular size of paper so that the ballots would go through the scanners to be electronically. Section 6.1 of the report discusses all this in further detail. |
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Harry Hayfield
Green
Cavalier Gentleman (as in 17th century Cavalier)
Posts: 2,922 
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Post by Harry Hayfield on Oct 3, 2018 21:32:21 GMT
For those of us, like me, who do not know what the categories are: A: Images involving penetrative sexual activity and/or images involving sexual activity with an animal or sadism B: Images involving non-penetrative sexual activity C: Images that do not fall into either A or B |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Oct 31, 2018 15:34:32 GMT
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,712
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Post by CatholicLeft on Oct 31, 2018 15:48:30 GMT
Should surprise me, but doesn't. These sentences are becoming quite common, despite the seriousness of the images and, as somebody who has worked with people in prison for far less serious crimes, I am totally baffled. Mind you, having a good lawyer and being from a ''stable" family background is seemingly something being taken into account. |
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mondialito
Labour
Everything is horribly, brutally possible.
Posts: 4,961
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Post by mondialito on Oct 31, 2018 15:55:10 GMT
being from a ''stable" family background is seemingly something being taken into account. Why should it? How does his family situation reflect on his decision to look at child porn? If he was single or from a dysfunctional family, would he face a harsher sentence? I would have thought after Lavinia Woodward that judges would be more wary of being seen to favour the affluent or comfortably off. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,712
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Post by CatholicLeft on Oct 31, 2018 16:14:43 GMT
being from a ''stable" family background is seemingly something being taken into account. Why should it? How does his family situation reflect on his decision to look at child porn? If he was single or from a dysfunctional family, would he face a harsher sentence? I would have thought after Lavinia Woodward that judges would be more wary of being seen to favour the affluent or comfortably off. It shouldn't, but my observation of recent court cases has led me to believe that it does. |
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cefin
Non-Aligned
Posts: 906
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Post by cefin on Nov 1, 2018 9:06:22 GMT
Further evidence if any be needed that the authorities have given up on law and order.
What exactly do you have to do these days to get a prison sentence?
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 1, 2018 9:13:54 GMT
Further evidence if any be needed that the authorities have given up on law and order. What exactly do you have to do these days to get a prison sentence? I get the impression - and I could be wrong - that the parlous state of the prison service (particularly the overcrowding) means that people stand a good chance of being fined etc , where a jail sentence might have been expected until recently.
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Nov 1, 2018 9:48:34 GMT
I get that he's shown remorse by resigning immediately, admitting his guilt to the police, seeking counselling and that his personal and professional life is basically over but I would think there are some crimes where a spell behind bars should be automatic and that looking at a lot of porn over a period of time involving 6-13 years olds should be one of them.
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 1, 2018 9:54:03 GMT
I get that he's shown remorse by resigning immediately, admitting his guilt to the police, seeking counselling and that his personal and professional life is basically over but I would think there are some crimes where a spell behind bars should be automatic and that looking at a lot of porn over a period of time involving 6-13 years olds should be one of them. I can't imagine that there are many - if any - people who would disagree with this. |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Nov 1, 2018 11:35:59 GMT
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
Member is Online
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 1, 2018 12:30:45 GMT
Interesting to contrast this sentence to those of the parliamentarians imprisoned for mostly pretty petty and pathetic expenses fiddling. Or even to the lengthy prison terms given to the defendants in the latest North Wales Bus Company Fraud trial on the same day...
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 1, 2018 14:01:15 GMT
Worth noting that there are sentencing guidelines for each type of offence that judges have to follow, as well as the pre-sentence reports.
What we don’t know is what sentence the prosecution sought, was it in their ballpark? We can infer that he co-operated from day one, meaning it was reasonable to interpret the guilty plea as genuine and qualifying for the tariff deduction. It’s also reasonable to infer from the comments of both barristers that he was a lone wolf and not engaged in the commissioning or trading of images, which would be another mitigating factor. The judge’s remarks do not imply the pre-sentence reports indicated he posed any direct threat to children, so another mitigating consideration. Final point, he was only charged with three offences despite the volume of material found in his possession, again suggesting the CPS felt that the counselling and rehabilitation he was ordered to participate in would be more beneficial than a custodial sentence.
One of my Facebook friends has started the same debate knowing that one of his friends is a CPS barrister. Her considered opinion is that custodial sentences for first offences of possession are rarely imposed unless there are extenuating circumstances such as being involved in an online forum exchanging images. She also believes the section about “spiral of loneliness” is potentially significant as it indicates if you remove him from the circumstances that led him to offend he is deemed unlikely to reoffend, therefore unless you are just looking at punitive punishment rather than rehabilitative punishment a non-custodial sentence was pretty much a “no-brainer” in her words.
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cefin
Non-Aligned
Posts: 906
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Post by cefin on Nov 1, 2018 14:48:21 GMT
“spiral of loneliness” is potentially significant as it indicates if you remove him from the circumstances that led him to offend he is deemed unlikely to reoffend, therefore unless you are just looking at punitive punishment rather than rehabilitative punishment a non-custodial sentence was pretty much a “no-brainer” in her words."
Has there ever been a defendent in the history of prosecutions who hasn't
Been in a spiral of loneliness
Just lost their Mum / Dad
Just split up with their girlfriend
Depressed
Gained weight recently causing unlawful behaviour
Just lost their job apparently causing criminal behaviour trends
Been ill for some time
Lost their tortoise
etc etc etc... insert your own human drama reason for the offence committed.... etc etc etc
It seems that there has never ever been a defendent who was genuinely a bad un it was all caused by something else!
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,712
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 1, 2018 16:16:04 GMT
Worth noting that there are sentencing guidelines for each type of offence that judges have to follow, as well as the pre-sentence reports. What we don’t know is what sentence the prosecution sought, was it in their ballpark? We can infer that he co-operated from day one, meaning it was reasonable to interpret the guilty plea as genuine and qualifying for the tariff deduction. It’s also reasonable to infer from the comments of both barristers that he was a lone wolf and not engaged in the commissioning or trading of images, which would be another mitigating factor. The judge’s remarks do not imply the pre-sentence reports indicated he posed any direct threat to children, so another mitigating consideration. Final point, he was only charged with three offences despite the volume of material found in his possession, again suggesting the CPS felt that the counselling and rehabilitation he was ordered to participate in would be more beneficial than a custodial sentence. One of my Facebook friends has started the same debate knowing that one of his friends is a CPS barrister. Her considered opinion is that custodial sentences for first offences of possession are rarely imposed unless there are extenuating circumstances such as being involved in an online forum exchanging images. She also believes the section about “spiral of loneliness” is potentially significant as it indicates if you remove him from the circumstances that led him to offend he is deemed unlikely to reoffend, therefore unless you are just looking at punitive punishment rather than rehabilitative punishment a non-custodial sentence was pretty much a “no-brainer” in her words. There is no mention of the victims in this scenario, and that is important. Those children on the photos deserve to have their suffering acknowledged and the problem is that we see the offender as the victim. Bear in mind that I know many people in prison that have suffered awful abuse, but that didn't stop their being sentenced for crimes that I would consider less serious than in this case. |
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 1, 2018 16:24:09 GMT
“spiral of loneliness” is potentially significant as it indicates if you remove him from the circumstances that led him to offend he is deemed unlikely to reoffend, therefore unless you are just looking at punitive punishment rather than rehabilitative punishment a non-custodial sentence was pretty much a “no-brainer” in her words." Has there ever been a defendent in the history of prosecutions who hasn't Been in a spiral of loneliness Just lost their Mum / Dad Just split up with their girlfriend Depressed Gained weight recently causing unlawful behaviour Just lost their job apparently causing criminal behaviour trends Been ill for some time Lost their tortoise etc etc etc... insert your own human drama reason for the offence committed.... etc etc etc It seems that there has never ever been a defendent who was genuinely a bad un it was all caused by something else! Of course there has; I doubt Fred and Rosemary West claimed loneliness. More to the point it’s a contributory factor in pre-sentencing reports and sentencing guidelines on which any judge has to base his/her decision. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,712
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Post by CatholicLeft on Nov 1, 2018 16:31:22 GMT
“spiral of loneliness” is potentially significant as it indicates if you remove him from the circumstances that led him to offend he is deemed unlikely to reoffend, therefore unless you are just looking at punitive punishment rather than rehabilitative punishment a non-custodial sentence was pretty much a “no-brainer” in her words." Has there ever been a defendent in the history of prosecutions who hasn't Been in a spiral of loneliness Just lost their Mum / Dad Just split up with their girlfriend Depressed Gained weight recently causing unlawful behaviour Just lost their job apparently causing criminal behaviour trends Been ill for some time Lost their tortoise etc etc etc... insert your own human drama reason for the offence committed.... etc etc etc It seems that there has never ever been a defendent who was genuinely a bad un it was all caused by something else! Of course there has; I doubt Fred and Rosemary West claimed loneliness. More to the point it’s a contributory factor in pre-sentencing reports and sentencing guidelines on which any judge has to base his/her decision. I suspect I am the only person on this forum who has met and spent time with Rosemary West. I am prevented from saying anything beyond that, but I have always believed that she is serving her husband's sentence rather than her own, as he was never found guilty of anything, dying before his trial. She would probably have had a lengthy but different sentence if he had actually been tried. |
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cefin
Non-Aligned
Posts: 906
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Post by cefin on Nov 1, 2018 17:48:53 GMT
“spiral of loneliness” is potentially significant as it indicates if you remove him from the circumstances that led him to offend he is deemed unlikely to reoffend, therefore unless you are just looking at punitive punishment rather than rehabilitative punishment a non-custodial sentence was pretty much a “no-brainer” in her words." Has there ever been a defendent in the history of prosecutions who hasn't Been in a spiral of loneliness Just lost their Mum / Dad Just split up with their girlfriend Depressed Gained weight recently causing unlawful behaviour Just lost their job apparently causing criminal behaviour trends Been ill for some time Lost their tortoise etc etc etc... insert your own human drama reason for the offence committed.... etc etc etc It seems that there has never ever been a defendent who was genuinely a bad un it was all caused by something else! Of course there has; I doubt Fred and Rosemary West claimed loneliness. More to the point it’s a contributory factor in pre-sentencing reports and sentencing guidelines on which any judge has to base his/her decision. Well they shouldn't then should they? As pointed out everyone seems to have mitigating circumstances even those with scores of previous convictions. They should be judged and sentenced according to the crime. |
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 1, 2018 17:55:01 GMT
Of course there has; I doubt Fred and Rosemary West claimed loneliness. More to the point it’s a contributory factor in pre-sentencing reports and sentencing guidelines on which any judge has to base his/her decision. Well they shouldn't then should they? As pointed out everyone seems to have mitigating circumstances even those with scores of previous convictions. They should be judged and sentenced according to the crime. So you would do away with sentencing guidelines, which are drawn up by a Standing Committee of the Home Office, senior judiciary, police, probation, healthcare (usually mental healthcare) completely and leave it to each individual judge to pluck a random sentence out of thin air based on nothing more than their personal feelings on the day? |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Nov 1, 2018 21:45:27 GMT
I have met rather a lot of people whose charge sheet looked rather similar to Simon Thomas' (including some who were very middle class.) I met them because I worked in a prison. A lot of the mitigating factors cited here applied in those cases also. At the most generous interpretation, he is a very lucky man.
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