Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,029
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 15, 2014 0:13:28 GMT
So the one direct seat won by the SPD in Thuringia was Gotha. Love it.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 15, 2014 7:18:19 GMT
The death of the FDP is something to be celebrated. Even by political liberals. You don't want to be associated with people like that. I took a similar line with PASOK. Could you elaborate on your view here of the FDP? I won't argue with your view on PASOK... |
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Post by Devonian on Sept 15, 2014 7:22:21 GMT
I have to say that it was very fortunate timing for the AfD that the first three Lantags to vote after the Euro elections were the three where they had their highest share of the vote
Can anyone give a translation for the second part of this video?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 15, 2014 8:47:58 GMT
The headline point in the second part is that 41% of people surveyed would like them to enter their own Landtag.
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Post by Ben Walker on Sept 15, 2014 15:14:50 GMT
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 15, 2014 17:02:48 GMT
Germany has a fine tradition of liberalism, and the predecessors of the FDP were two separate liberal parties, one leaning left (DDP) and one leaning right (DVP). The FDP's great achievement has been to marry these factions, albeit not without tension, into a coherent grouping. Unfortunately for the FDP, despite this fine tradition, there is no clear geographical liberal cluster- there are no towns that are really strikingly liberal, although I'm sure iainbhx will correct me. Thus, as their popularity hit the floor, they have no geographical patch to fall back on (which is why the assumption that the Lib Dems are doomed is naive). They also lost their big beasts, for better or worse (by for the better I mean Juergen Moellemann), with only the unconvincing Rainer Bruederle who has retired after the catastrophe of last time out. Add to that the fact that their left-liberal faction has steadily leaked away to Die Gruenen/Buendnis '90 as the Greens became more bourgeois- the Greens do have geographical clusters these days, as it happens. What sets Germany apart from its neighbours is that Liberalism has not produced a Chancellor/PM since the war, nor even threatened to do so. Belgium and the Netherlands, which 20 years ago were classic Christian Democrat/Socialist clashes, have or have had liberal-led executives in recent years, and arguably so have Denmark (Venstre) and France (UDF), and the ruling centre-right parties in Britain, Ireland and Poland all have sizeable factions that wouldn't feel out of place in the FDP. The exception is Austria where liberalism means something confused and polarised between true liberalism, post-fascism and simply opposition to Team Proporz. The death of the FDP will be a sad thing, and will disenfranchise a sizeable minority amongst the German electorate. That tradition will not be replaced by the AfD- they are much in the mould of the DVP, with a garnishing of the less authoritarian section of the electorate who used to vote Republikaner. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,029
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 15, 2014 17:29:45 GMT
Could you elaborate on your view here of the FDP? I won't argue with your view on PASOK... The FDP is effectively a lobbying group for certain business interests masquerading as a political party. During the recent CDU-FDP federal government they made the (fatal it seems) error of making that fact way too obvious, and a total credibility collapse followed. |
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carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,907 
Member is Online
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 15, 2014 18:03:13 GMT
I think the marked rise of AfG for EDP is a very good trade indeed and reflects the change in the German political and social dynamics.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Sept 15, 2014 21:36:28 GMT
I take it Die Piraten have fizzled out without trace?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 15, 2014 22:03:39 GMT
Could you elaborate on your view here of the FDP? I won't argue with your view on PASOK... The FDP is effectively a lobbying group for certain business interests masquerading as a political party. During the recent CDU-FDP federal government they made the (fatal it seems) error of making that fact way too obvious, and a total credibility collapse followed. I'd say that's harsh in the context of the entire history of the party, but probably quite accurate now when I consider it. Wouldn't vote for them myself, insufficiently "sozial" for my tastes. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 22:18:08 GMT
I think the marked rise of AfG for EDP is a very good trade indeed and reflects the change in the German political and social dynamics. Infinitely preferable to ukip: More intellectually rigorous and less jealous and hateful. Can talk about the issues without pandering to troglodytes and then describing such silliness as being "anti-metropolitan" which in real terms means pro-small mindness and anti-foreigner, pro-socialist style jealously. When you look at Farage and the yes men and idiots who he has surrounded himself with you can't help but thinking how much better things could be. You wonder why Richard Allen and I left? I would give AfD my vote any day of the week. They are what a right wing eurosceptic outfit should look like |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Sept 15, 2014 22:32:36 GMT
I think most of Germany has been considering it for around 3 years, it's just they don't want to talk about it. The FDP is probably history, it is as simple as that. The most interesting and important question in German politics isn't the demise of the FDP or the rise of the AfD, it is simply "nach Mutti" - what happens after Merkel. Well yes but those points are all interlinked to some degree. If the FDP is finished outside of a handful of states (hard to see them disappearing in Lower Saxony and NRW) who will the CDU look to as their natural allies and potential coalition partners? The CSU are finished outside of Bavaria. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Sept 15, 2014 22:49:33 GMT
Well yes but those points are all interlinked to some degree. If the FDP is finished outside of a handful of states (hard to see them disappearing in Lower Saxony and NRW) who will the CDU look to as their natural allies and potential coalition partners? The CSU are finished outside of Bavaria. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Sept 15, 2014 23:27:17 GMT
Bearing in mind they are pro-EU membership (though avowedly anti-Euro) that doesn't exactly follow. They're not exactly a German UKIP but looking at their policies they would largely appear to be an analogue of the UK Tories (who as we know when it comes down to it, are a pro-EU party, even if a lot of the membership wish it wasn't). Well, I flatter myself that I know the membership of the Tory party better than you do. The membership is largely Eurosceptic. Its leadership, whilst sounding Eurosceptic in opposition, tend to come under the influence of civil servants when in office. As for AfD.....Rome wasn't built in a day. They seek repatriation of powers from the EU and they want reform of the Euro, quite sensibly. What you pro-EU federalist types seem to ignore is that the EU is adopting a French notion of federalism rather than a German one.....and the Germans have started to realise it and, they don't like it. I was actually bowing to previous comments by you regarding the wider Conservative membership, and from my own experience, being very Eurosceptic/pro-withdrawal. I tend to think that your leadership however come to their senses when they understand what a disaster leaving the EU would be when in office (see Hague's virtual damascene conversion once becoming foreign secretary in 2010) with all the facts at their disposal, rather than civil servants being all powerful. It's funny how the civil servants running the show doesn't seem to happen where your party's got your way in government... Anyway, more to the point, your party is the leadership because they make your policy, that was more my point of the Tories being 'pro-EU', not in any practical sense of rhetoric or membership. Hmmm, I would imagine if it was a French style of federalism the Front National wouldn't be doing quite so well. The EU needs to move to a full subsidiarity model (as does the UK itself) which I don't think has any current parallel in Europe. I actually think that the 'Project' is moving in a very interesting direction at the moment and finally becoming more reflexive, stil a long way to go though. |
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Post by johnloony on Sept 16, 2014 0:09:12 GMT
The CSU are finished outside of Bavaria. Was the CSU ever significant at all outside of Bavaria in the first place? |
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Post by iainbhx on Sept 16, 2014 6:10:36 GMT
The CSU are finished outside of Bavaria. Was the CSU ever significant at all outside of Bavaria in the first place? If I remember correctly there was a very brief attempt for get them started in BaWü, it failed badly. |
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Post by iainbhx on Sept 16, 2014 6:12:19 GMT
I take it Die Piraten have fizzled out without trace? Outside Berlin, yes and their survival in Berlin is dubious, but they still occasionally pop above 5% in the polls there. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 29, 2014 21:16:17 GMT
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Post by iainbhx on Sept 30, 2014 20:15:31 GMT
There was that dodgy attempt at taking over die REP by some recht-extrem elements, but yes, it's rather a smear. On other news - it looked like Thüringen was going to try for a rot-rotes-grün, but the Greens bless their little cotton socks, seem to have put a spanner in the works requiring that our friends in the SED admit that the DDR was an Unrechtstaat. The other two are still undecided but I'd be amazed if the Mark was anything other than rot-rotes and Saxony was anything other than a Groß or Tillich trying to run a minority. One of the AfD has been slung out of the fraction in Brandenburg already - very UKIP. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 30, 2014 21:16:22 GMT
Ah, that'll be Buendnis 90 rearing its head again!
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