Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 17, 2021 17:24:43 GMT
Ah, so noone who lives in a Tory area could ever be a Labour MP? Anybody who lives in an area that's so strongly Tory there are no Labour councillors isn't in a winnable seat anyway So they would never be able to be selected elsewhere? You're sounding like a Liberal Democrat! |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 17, 2021 19:08:32 GMT
Possibly a discussion for the Labour Party room, but I think part of the problem is having too many MPs straight from university or lawyer/banker/accountant type jobs and too many MPs with too little experience of lower levels of government. Personally I think we should include a rule that any candidate in a target seats has to have sat on a district, county or unitary council for a minimum of one full term before being selected to make sure we get more MPs with more experience of being in some level of government, a stronger connection to the local party and stronger roots in the local area Ah, so noone who lives in a Tory area could ever be a Labour MP? I think it is a question for all parties, to be honest. I also don't think being a member of a district council is essential, not least for the reason Merseymike points out. A more varied experience of the world of work would be good, experience where politics was incidental rather than the main focus. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
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Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 17, 2021 19:29:24 GMT
Anybody who lives in an area that's so strongly Tory there are no Labour councillors isn't in a winnable seat anyway So they would never be able to be selected elsewhere? You're sounding like a Liberal Democrat! That's fighting talk. |
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Post by justin124 on Jun 17, 2021 19:34:38 GMT
Whilst it is undoubtedly fair to say that the pandemic has screwed up Starmer's first year, he should really be much better at challenging the government in a way that is understandable to the voter. Being forensic is not enough if nobody can be bothered watching you. The real problem is that he is absolutely an establishment figure who will have no deep interest in challenging the same establishment. My reasons for opposing him as leader cane from my knowledge of him as DPP when I worked in the High Security Estate, and it made me distrust him. I feel for Rebecca Long-Bailey as she was promoted too soon. With more time on the back-benches, she would have built up her knowledge base. Nonetheless, if she had been somewhat less cavalier with her use of social media, she would still be on the front bench and developing as a significant figure. As it is, she is now invisible, not even a supportive critic. The party seems bereft of political heavyweights, from any ideological wing, and that is a real weakness. Possibly a discussion for the Labour Party room, but I think part of the problem is having too many MPs straight from university or lawyer/banker/accountant type jobs and too many MPs with too little experience of lower levels of government. Personally I think we should include a rule that any candidate in a target seats has to have sat on a district, county or unitary council for a minimum of one full term before being selected to make sure we get more MPs with more experience of being in some level of government, a stronger connection to the local party and stronger roots in the local area That would have excluded Harold Wilson, James Callaghan, Denis Healey, Barbara Castle, Tony Benn, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and many others. |
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Post by andrew111 on Jun 17, 2021 19:48:25 GMT
Ah, so noone who lives in a Tory area could ever be a Labour MP? Anybody who lives in an area that's so strongly Tory there are no Labour councillors isn't in a winnable seat anyway Well, if that were the rule people could move to an area with local councillors as part of this apprenticeship.. But maybe I am getting a bit old in thinking the front benches of all the Parties 30 years ago just were... Better |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jun 17, 2021 19:59:47 GMT
Anybody who lives in an area that's so strongly Tory there are no Labour councillors isn't in a winnable seat anyway Well, if that were the rule people could move to an area with local councillors as part of this apprenticeship.. But maybe I am getting a bit old in thinking the front benches of all the Parties 30 years ago just were... Better I realise you're all talking hypothetically but.. You're moving people to another part of the country to be a full-time? Councillor. That's not a job in the real world. It's a job within a political bubble. Some real jobs are only available in certain places, what if your party can't win in them so you can't get experience at any level? You have to give up your job? This politicians having to be local is rubbish, it is any easy campaigning slogan but behind it you actually often fine poorer quality candidates. To me people use this as a campaigning angle when they have little else to offer the voters. |
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hengo
Conservative
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Post by hengo on Jun 17, 2021 20:00:47 GMT
They were.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 17, 2021 20:11:26 GMT
The impression I got from the outside was that R L-B was Continuity Corbyn and therefore written off by anyone noticing how JC had gone down on the doorstep, while Starmer was offering safe managerial efficiency (and it's worth remembering just how bloody lazy Corbyn was) while promising to stick to the Corbynite policy agenda which genuinely got traction in 2017. I'm not sure that isn't the answer, because I don't see he's done either. He hasn't carried on addressing the worries of young voters about affording a home or getting value for their education or e.g. come up with a radical solution to social care. He's been smart enough to avoid elephant traps on statues and Rejoin but hasn't looked energetic like early Blair (even up against Johnson who makes Corbyn look Stakhanovite). Covid has made life hard for him and easier for Johnson (who can do what he does best i.e. nothing while others do the work/carry the can) I don't entirely agree. It's a question of whether you thought the policies or Corbyn the individual was the issue. If it was perceived as just the latter then R L-B didn't have any of the "baggage" (little interest in foreign policy, relatively new to party politics etc). I think for her it was more the blatantly obvious reluctance that she had to do the job. I also do t think Corbyn was lazy at all, but he wasn't interested in the sort of party management issues which fascinate some and preferred to be out and about motivating the party, which he was excellent at doing - whereas Starmer is the exact opposite. He couldn't motivate anyone to do anything. I don't think that people realise exactly how many people, even those who have stayed in the party, are simply not doing anything practical. A councillor I know well said to me that she ended up delivering the vast majority of her own leaflets. This is a safe Labour ward but I have no reason to think, given my contacts across the country, that this isn't happening everywhere. Left wing party members are just not doing the work they were doing before. I can't honestly give an unbiased view of Starmer. For me, he is wrong on almost every issue, and has the appeal of a bucket of congealed vomit. I don't want him as PM and won't vote for him. The Rejoin issue would not have even been a possibility if we had done what we should have done and make it clear that the referendum had voted for us to leave. Corbyn was absolutely right to call for an immediate passing of article 50 and that would have heightened the pressure on May to get moving with a sensible cross party approach. And I do blame Starmer for the move towards a second referendum. Corbyn should certainly have been stronger - but as I have said before, leaving the EU was inevitable given public attitudes and the fact no-one was prepared to promote political union. I've heard nothing positive from Starmer. His position on Covid has been for me, worse than the Government. He appears to have nothing to say. He appears as incapable of challenging Johnson as the left in general, who can't get to grips with why some people like him - but the Being Boring strategy of Starmer certainly isn't the way forward. And he isn't capable of being anything other. "Lazy" may have been the wrong word for Corbyn. His energy at the start of the 2017 GE impressed me. I had in mind his lacklustre Brexit Ref performance - which may have been policy - and his slowness to respond to events. (I especially remember his delay in appointing a press officer after election as leader - Seamus Milne isn't my cup of tea, but at least he got the job done - but for about a week or two there was literally no-one in post when Corbyn was the hottest story in politics.) He never seemed to have the intellectual energy of McDonnell (also not my Darjeeling, but impressed me despite myself). If you aren't interested in these things you need to delegate effectively and fast (and be seen to have a grip on the output.). All these things were weaknesses and I understand why people thought Starmer might fix them. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 20:21:59 GMT
I don't entirely agree. It's a question of whether you thought the policies or Corbyn the individual was the issue. If it was perceived as just the latter then R L-B didn't have any of the "baggage" (little interest in foreign policy, relatively new to party politics etc). I think for her it was more the blatantly obvious reluctance that she had to do the job. I also do t think Corbyn was lazy at all, but he wasn't interested in the sort of party management issues which fascinate some and preferred to be out and about motivating the party, which he was excellent at doing - whereas Starmer is the exact opposite. He couldn't motivate anyone to do anything. I don't think that people realise exactly how many people, even those who have stayed in the party, are simply not doing anything practical. A councillor I know well said to me that she ended up delivering the vast majority of her own leaflets. This is a safe Labour ward but I have no reason to think, given my contacts across the country, that this isn't happening everywhere. Left wing party members are just not doing the work they were doing before. I can't honestly give an unbiased view of Starmer. For me, he is wrong on almost every issue, and has the appeal of a bucket of congealed vomit. I don't want him as PM and won't vote for him. The Rejoin issue would not have even been a possibility if we had done what we should have done and make it clear that the referendum had voted for us to leave. Corbyn was absolutely right to call for an immediate passing of article 50 and that would have heightened the pressure on May to get moving with a sensible cross party approach. And I do blame Starmer for the move towards a second referendum. Corbyn should certainly have been stronger - but as I have said before, leaving the EU was inevitable given public attitudes and the fact no-one was prepared to promote political union. I've heard nothing positive from Starmer. His position on Covid has been for me, worse than the Government. He appears to have nothing to say. He appears as incapable of challenging Johnson as the left in general, who can't get to grips with why some people like him - but the Being Boring strategy of Starmer certainly isn't the way forward. And he isn't capable of being anything other. "Lazy" may have been the wrong word for Corbyn. His energy at the start of the 2017 GE impressed me. I had in mind his lacklustre Brexit Ref performance - which may have been policy - and his slowness to respond to events. (I especially remember his delay in appointing a press officer after election as leader - Seamus Milne isn't my cup of tea, but at least he got the job done - but for about a week or two there was literally no-one in post when Corbyn was the hottest story in politics.) He never seemed to have the intellectual energy of McDonnell (also not my Darjeeling, but impressed me despite myself). If you aren't interested in these things you need to delegate effectively and fast (and be seen to have a grip on the output.). All these things were weaknesses and I understand why people thought Starmer might fix them. Corbyn was a crap politician. Starmer is an equally crap politician but for different reasons. However I think the last few years have shown that a) an essentially Corbynite agenda can work as long as it focusses on the right issues (ie public services, jobs, wages, housing rather than nationalisation or Palestine) b) it needs to be wrapped in something that appears respectable - not necessarily moderate but not firebrand either c) the party needs someone who can appeal to people with the right message, motivate people and competently run the every day, behind the scenes business of party leadership. For me, Corbyn did the second but not the third. Starmer can do the third but not the second (though even there there have been some appalling mistakes) and neither got the first part right but both had elements of it |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 17, 2021 20:42:09 GMT
"Lazy" may have been the wrong word for Corbyn. His energy at the start of the 2017 GE impressed me. I had in mind his lacklustre Brexit Ref performance - which may have been policy - and his slowness to respond to events. (I especially remember his delay in appointing a press officer after election as leader - Seamus Milne isn't my cup of tea, but at least he got the job done - but for about a week or two there was literally no-one in post when Corbyn was the hottest story in politics.) He never seemed to have the intellectual energy of McDonnell (also not my Darjeeling, but impressed me despite myself). If you aren't interested in these things you need to delegate effectively and fast (and be seen to have a grip on the output.). All these things were weaknesses and I understand why people thought Starmer might fix them. Corbyn was a crap politician. Starmer is an equally crap politician but for different reasons. However I think the last few years have shown that a) an essentially Corbynite agenda can work as long as it focusses on the right issues (ie public services, jobs, wages, housing rather than nationalisation or Palestine) b) it needs to be wrapped in something that appears respectable - not necessarily moderate but not firebrand either c) the party needs someone who can appeal to people with the right message, motivate people and competently run the every day, behind the scenes business of party leadership. For me, Corbyn did the second but not the third. Starmer can do the third but not the second (though even there there have been some appalling mistakes) and neither got the first part right but both had elements of it Even the nationalisation thing was fine for the railways. Johnson has near as dammit done it and I don't think it was an unpopular idea anyway. Credibility was more of an issue - "you're never going to be PM so it doesn't matter what you say." Suspect that Starmer has that prob now, too. Didn't when he started. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 20:45:58 GMT
Corbyn was a crap politician. Starmer is an equally crap politician but for different reasons. However I think the last few years have shown that a) an essentially Corbynite agenda can work as long as it focusses on the right issues (ie public services, jobs, wages, housing rather than nationalisation or Palestine) b) it needs to be wrapped in something that appears respectable - not necessarily moderate but not firebrand either c) the party needs someone who can appeal to people with the right message, motivate people and competently run the every day, behind the scenes business of party leadership. For me, Corbyn did the second but not the third. Starmer can do the third but not the second (though even there there have been some appalling mistakes) and neither got the first part right but both had elements of it Even the nationalisation thing was fine for the railways. Johnson has near as dammit done it and I don't think it was an unpopular idea anyway. Credibility was more of an issue - "you're never going to be PM so it doesn't matter what you say." Suspect that Starmer has that prob now, too. Didn't when he started. That's certainly true, although personally I would have been more explicit that "we want cheaper tickets and better services and we believe nationalisation is the best way to achieve that" rather simply arguing for nationalisation. What you say about credibility is also true and that's partly why RLB didn't win the leadership - Corbyn did so much damage to the reputation of the party's left that nobody who aligned themselves to him (or who was aligned to him by other people) would ever look like a credible PM |
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Post by justin124 on Jun 17, 2021 20:53:05 GMT
Edwin Poots has resigned as DUP leader after just 3 weeks in the post. Perhaps that will make Starmer feel a bit better about the prospect of stepping down 15 months into the job!
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 17, 2021 21:00:17 GMT
All this is very well, albeit rather tired and predictable
But it's all in the past.
The fact is that after more than a year in post, Starmer has not improved Labour's standing, his personal ratings are poor, the party has lost lots of active people, even if they have retained party membership, and part of the existing core appear very disillusioned without any obvious new groups being attracted.
This is now what needs to be addressed. One of Corbyn's very obvious failures was that he didn't sort out the PLP so there is a huge amount of unimaginative dead wood who have nothing to say. It's certainly the case that the right of the party have had a real dearth of creative thinking and that is proving a very obvious weakness now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 21:04:25 GMT
All this is very well, albeit rather tired and predictable But it's all in the past. The fact is that after more than a year in post, Starmer has not improved Labour's standing, his personal ratings are poor, the party has lost lots of active people, even if they have retained party membership, and part of the existing core appear very disillusioned without any obvious new groups being attracted. This is now what needs to be addressed. One of Corbyn's very obvious failures was that he didn't sort out the PLP so there is a huge amount of unimaginative dead wood who have nothing to say. It's certainly the case that the right of the party have had a real dearth of creative thinking and that is proving a very obvious weakness now. By far and away not just a problem with the right of the PLP. Starmer has not done well, but the fact remains that COVID has hamstrung him. And it's hard to keep members when you aren't even allowed to meet for over year - when people disengage from anything for that long it's quite likely that they won't come back |
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Post by justin124 on Jun 17, 2021 21:16:33 GMT
I have become very critical of Starmer but do accept that until the end of 2020 he appeared to be doing ok. Then along came Johnson's vaccine bounce and a series of unforced errors which cumulatively may now prove terminal in terms of his authority and ability to carry on.
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 17, 2021 21:22:58 GMT
All this is very well, albeit rather tired and predictable But it's all in the past. The fact is that after more than a year in post, Starmer has not improved Labour's standing, his personal ratings are poor, the party has lost lots of active people, even if they have retained party membership, and part of the existing core appear very disillusioned without any obvious new groups being attracted. This is now what needs to be addressed. One of Corbyn's very obvious failures was that he didn't sort out the PLP so there is a huge amount of unimaginative dead wood who have nothing to say. It's certainly the case that the right of the party have had a real dearth of creative thinking and that is proving a very obvious weakness now. By far and away not just a problem with the right of the PLP. Starmer has not done well, but the fact remains that COVID has hamstrung him. And it's hard to keep members when you aren't even allowed to meet for over year - when people disengage from anything for that long it's quite likely that they won't come back But the right are now back in charge. So frankly, the fact they haven't had a single new idea for a decade or more does matter. You could just as easily argue that Starmer uses Covid as an excuse. Given his stance I don't see how he can complain about the consequences. He has deliberately alienated a raft of people and he will never win them back now. But it just wasn't necessary. This misplaced view that by being nasty to the left the voters would flood back.... |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Jun 18, 2021 21:42:19 GMT
Anybody who lives in an area that's so strongly Tory there are no Labour councillors isn't in a winnable seat anyway So they would never be able to be selected elsewhere? You're sounding like a Liberal Democrat! Oh the irony! |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 19, 2021 10:09:33 GMT
By far and away not just a problem with the right of the PLP. Starmer has not done well, but the fact remains that COVID has hamstrung him. And it's hard to keep members when you aren't even allowed to meet for over year - when people disengage from anything for that long it's quite likely that they won't come back But the right are now back in charge. So frankly, the fact they haven't had a single new idea for a decade or more does matter. You could just as easily argue that Starmer uses Covid as an excuse. Given his stance I don't see how he can complain about the consequences. He has deliberately alienated a raft of people and he will never win them back now. But it just wasn't necessary. This misplaced view that by being nasty to the left the voters would flood back....A nostrum near-universally supported by centrists in both Labour and the media, who appear to have Starmer's ear despite having got almost everything wrong for years. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jun 19, 2021 13:59:48 GMT
It could be argued that Starmer, who is not instinctively of the Labour right, has done far too little to distinguish himself from the disastrous previous leadership.
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The Bishop
Labour
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 19, 2021 14:03:58 GMT
Of course that could be argued - literally anything can be - but it would have to explain his choice of Gen Sec amongst other things.
This is just anecdotal of course, but its only in the past month that I have started to see (online and IRL) "say what you like about Corbyn, but....." takes.
Which is maybe as eloquent a sign as any of how bad things have now got.
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