Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 22:05:42 GMT
Are we meant to dislike Five Star? I don't know anything about them, but according to wikipedia, they do sound reasonable. Populist, anti-EU and anti-immigrant. Lacking in any political cohesion. Is that you would call reasonable? Eminently so. (that seems a reasonable word to use too, given its Latin roots)
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Post by Sibboleth on Mar 5, 2018 22:43:49 GMT
The Map is done. A few errors and rounding inconsistencies are always possible; a handful of polling districts are also outstanding (though shouldn't alter anything of significance).
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Izzyeviel
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I stayed up for Hartlepools
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Post by Izzyeviel on Mar 6, 2018 0:32:24 GMT
Are we meant to dislike Five Star? I don't know anything about them, but according to wikipedia, they do sound reasonable. Populist, anti-EU and anti-immigrant. Lacking in any political cohesion. Is that you would call reasonable? From what I gather, they seem a bit confused on the EU, but are they really anti-immigration?
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Mar 6, 2018 0:59:41 GMT
These days anyone who doesn't support full open borders is considered anti-immigrant...so, yes, they are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 4:25:10 GMT
Are we meant to dislike Five Star? I don't know anything about them, but according to wikipedia, they do sound reasonable. Populist, anti-EU and anti-immigrant. Lacking in any political cohesion. Is that you would call reasonable? Yes. They oppose EU Federalism, mass immigration which has destroyed Italian social cohesion and led to horrific murders, they allow members to believe what they want on many issues and don’t impose a conformist draconian whip on everything. That’s reasonable imo
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swanarcadian
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Post by swanarcadian on Mar 6, 2018 5:55:26 GMT
The M5S strikes me as the kind of party that prospers in opposition, but given its lack of basic principles and consistency it will sink as soon as it is responsible for running the government. I suspect the moment it goes into a coalition government, its support will begin to plummet. We'll wait and see.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 6, 2018 6:16:45 GMT
Populist, anti-EU and anti-immigrant. Lacking in any political cohesion. Is that you would call reasonable? Yes. They oppose EU Federalism, mass immigration which has destroyed Italian social cohesion and led to horrific murders, they allow members to believe what they want on many issues and don’t impose a conformist draconian whip on everything. That’s reasonable imo Who needs a whip when the founder can expel you for dissent according to his whim?
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Post by markgoodair on Mar 6, 2018 7:41:12 GMT
The M5S strikes me as the kind of party that prospers in opposition, but given its lack of basic principles and consistency it will sink as soon as it is responsible for running the government. I suspect the moment it goes into a coalition government, its support will begin to plummet. We'll wait and see. I was under the impression that Five Star were again going into coalition with anyone else .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 7:42:29 GMT
Yes. They oppose EU Federalism, mass immigration which has destroyed Italian social cohesion and led to horrific murders, they allow members to believe what they want on many issues and don’t impose a conformist draconian whip on everything. That’s reasonable imo Who needs a whip when the founder can expel you for dissent according to his whim? Didn’t that happen in 2012? It’s changed a bit since then. That said, I’m not the party’s greatest supporter or anything but I am happy at their success and I do believe that success for them is, as I said, the boost that the Italian and EU Establishments need to change.
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Post by uhurasmazda on Mar 6, 2018 7:58:47 GMT
The M5S strikes me as the kind of party that prospers in opposition, but given its lack of basic principles and consistency it will sink as soon as it is responsible for running the government. I suspect the moment it goes into a coalition government, its support will begin to plummet. We'll wait and see. I was under the impression that Five Star were again going into coalition with anyone else . I seem to remember that they were against going into a coalition in which they didn't call the shots.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 6, 2018 8:16:22 GMT
Who needs a whip when the founder can expel you for dissent according to his whim? Didn’t that happen in 2012? It’s changed a bit since then. That said, I’m not the party’s greatest supporter or anything but I am happy at their success and I do believe that success for them is, as I said, the boost that the Italian and EU Establishments need to change. It has happened a few times. Grillo still runs the show despite his protestations. The Italian Establishment needs a kicking, this is not the method. And I'm surprised that a Conservative would want to touch a party that likes "degrowth".
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Izzyeviel
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I stayed up for Hartlepools
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Post by Izzyeviel on Mar 6, 2018 8:39:39 GMT
I presume they were expecting coalition between either Forza Italia or the PD, probably didn't expect there to be an alternative partner in Lega Nord.
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Post by Antiochian on Mar 6, 2018 9:18:58 GMT
That would be an interesting government if it happened. The typical corrupt often allegedly Mafia tied Italian politicians have failed the Italian people consistently since 1945. It’s time for others outside the mainstream to have go. It would be interesting to see the EU’s reaction, would they offer reform? Could we have an ally in Brexit negotiations? I just hope for Italy’s sake that that makeup of government doesn’t collapse into infighting as I suspect it might with Salvini. EU offer reform? Maybe Cameron can give them some tips...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 9:19:49 GMT
These days anyone who doesn't support full open borders is considered anti-immigrant...so, yes, they are. Anyone who doesn't support the wholsale opening of their national borders and the insane consequent flooding of their country with immigrants, destroying its culture and identity. Destabilising its public services; destroying the safety and security of its indigenous people, is quite clearly a racist bigot That would appear to mean practically everyone in Italy....but also Hungry, Austria and Switzerland. The Swedish election results will make interesting reading. The EU will either change dramatically or it will fall to pieces. Not that the EU is responsible for Sweden's ills....that is the insanity of their own lefty government
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 9:59:56 GMT
Didn’t that happen in 2012? It’s changed a bit since then. That said, I’m not the party’s greatest supporter or anything but I am happy at their success and I do believe that success for them is, as I said, the boost that the Italian and EU Establishments need to change. It has happened a few times. Grillo still runs the show despite his protestations. The Italian Establishment needs a kicking, this is not the method. And I'm surprised that a Conservative would want to touch a party that likes "degrowth". It depends what you mean by “Degrowth”. I don’t support the purposeful contraction of economies but where I do think anti mass consumerism Degrowthers like Five Star are on to something is taking action about the rampant environmental devastation caused by certain types of mass consumerism. So for example, scaling back the plastics industry, ending , if necessary by government enforcement, fresh water wastage in the manufacturing of certain products, doing something about the mass consumption of beef which hurts the environment etc. When it comes to those sorts of policies, which some identify as “Degrowth” one’s, I support that. That doesn’t mean I want capitalism, economic growth and consumerism to end, I want it to be more responsible. I don’t see why a Tory should not care about these things, I think we should. What’s more Conservative than preserving a healthy planet and economic growth and consumerism that’s sustanable long term for our children? Destroying their future for our convenience today hardly seems Conservative.
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Post by mrpastelito on Mar 6, 2018 10:01:47 GMT
I've just spotted that anti-vaccination crankery is part of the MS5 platform. If that's just about opposition to compulsory vaccinations then I agree. Absolutely illiberal and authoritarian.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 10:02:54 GMT
I've just spotted that anti-vaccination crankery is part of the MS5 platform. If that's just about opposition to compulsory vaccinations then I agree. Absolutely illiberal and authoritarian. What about very young children who haven’t been vaccinated? Why put them at risk?
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Post by mrpastelito on Mar 6, 2018 10:05:42 GMT
Are we meant to dislike Five Star? I don't know anything about them, but according to wikipedia, they do sound reasonable. To a certain extent they are similar to PODEMOS, but generally they are nothing else than a clueless MiddleFinger to the establishment. With the difference that Iglesias is a really, really clever, intelligent and educated man - the kind of political opponent you have the utmost respect for.
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Post by mrpastelito on Mar 6, 2018 10:07:29 GMT
The M5S strikes me as the kind of party that prospers in opposition, but given its lack of basic principles and consistency it will sink as soon as it is responsible for running the government. I suspect the moment it goes into a coalition government, its support will begin to plummet. We'll wait and see. Maybe they could rebrand as Lega Sud.
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Post by mrpastelito on Mar 6, 2018 10:13:53 GMT
If that's just about opposition to compulsory vaccinations then I agree. Absolutely illiberal and authoritarian. What about very young children who haven’t been vaccinated? Why put them at risk? None of the state's business on a point of principle. Might as well introduce universal 'guardianship' as the SNP like to call it. Totalitarian, monstrous, dystopian stuff.
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