Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 3, 2017 21:20:26 GMT
In Franco's time (although his régime self-identified as 'National Catholic'), no archbishop would've got away with defending the democratic order or referring to Catalonia as a nation. The 1978 Constitution only uses the phrase "historic nationality" rather than nation, and the courts unwisely struck down the latter phrase from the Catalan statute of autonomy in 2010. I do of course agree that La Razón is an utterly despicable publication. Yes, it's utter shite. Controversial headlines to grab attention and thin on news. It's owned by Grupo Planeta, which was set up by a man who seized other people's printing presses in (amusingly) Barcelona literally at gun point and got away with it because of his close connections to the regime. Whoa, I wasn't aware of how Grupo Planeta got started! Obviously I wouldn't want to see any newspaper banned, but you certainly have to treat headlines in that one with even more scepticism than most. It clearly still caters to a particular market of Spaniards who like their news slanted in that way. That said, even the normally more reliable El País went over the top with its parroting of the official position of the Spanish state a couple of months ago. Anyway, in other Catalan election news, ERC leader Oriol Junqueras – who must be the favourite to be the next President of the Generalitat – could well be released from prison tomorrow so that he can campaign properly. It's worth noting that for all their historical clout, the thought of his party topping the poll at elections to the Parlament seemed fanciful at best throughout the 80s, 90s and 2000s. The only party that looks like it has an outside chance of stopping them at the moment would be Ciutadans, and a victory for them would if anything be even more remarkable. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Dec 3, 2017 22:43:52 GMT
It's the type of stuff they publicly came out with during the Francoisme. He won't have done this without PP approval. It's not helpful for either side for them to get involved in such strident terms. Actually, it's probably worth reading the original. I have read the original report in the paper, and to suggest that Church leadership needs the permission of the PP to say anything is laughable. To hold an opinion on the breakup of your nation doesn't make you a Francoist. There is definitely a part of the Church that's very close to PP is Spain. Let's remember PSOE legalized gay marriage pretty much only to piss off the Church (the left and the Church have a terrible relationship due to the Church backing Franco in the Civil War). |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Dec 3, 2017 23:05:47 GMT
I have read the original report in the paper, and to suggest that Church leadership needs the permission of the PP to say anything is laughable. To hold an opinion on the breakup of your nation doesn't make you a Francoist. There is definitely a part of the Church that's very close to PP is Spain. Let's remember PSOE legalized gay marriage pretty much only to piss off the Church (the left and the Church have a terrible relationship due to the Church backing Franco in the Civil War). Ah yes, nothing to do with the slaughter of nearly 7,000 priests and religious during the Red Terror - all the fault of the Church. As somebody who basically lionised the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War and despises Francoism, I will not ignore their cruelty. Of course, many Basque priests opposed the Nationalist coup and were oppressed or killed for it. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 4, 2017 9:11:13 GMT
The Spanish church is a pretty corrupt and right wing affair, though - and both the left and Catalan nationalism is anti-clerical anyway.
Spain has a curious relationship with Catholicism anyway. It's very integrated into everyday life - saints days are celebrated by everyone, like Christmas here, and the resolutely anti church mayors of Andalusian villages are greatly enthusiastic for their village personal festival.
Barcelona and Madrid are extremely gay-friendly and Spanish attitudes towards Lgbt rights are among the most accepting in the world and becoming more so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 12:14:48 GMT
X-posted from the Spain thread since its electorally relevant. "Spain’s Supreme Court has decided to release six Catalan politicians from pre-trial custody but to keep the two most prominent ones behind bars. Former deputy premier Oriol Junqueras, of the Catalan Republican Left (ERC), and his ex-minister for interior affairs Joaquim Forn will remain in detention after Justice Pablo Llarena determined that there is a risk that both would go back to committing the same crimes if released."elpais.com/elpais/2017/12/04/inenglish/1512377103_107117.html |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Dec 4, 2017 12:16:10 GMT
...both the left and Catalan nationalism is anti-clerical anyway. Sweeping statement to start the week! Catalan nationalism includes many Catholic organisations, and the letter was condemning Catholic bishops and clerics who supported the referendum. Nationalists asked the Archbishop of Barcelona and the Abbot of Montserrat to mediate between the Catalan Government and Madrid. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 12:17:18 GMT
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 4, 2017 12:45:44 GMT
...both the left and Catalan nationalism is anti-clerical anyway. Sweeping statement to start the week! Catalan nationalism includes many Catholic organisations, and the letter was condemning Catholic bishops and clerics who supported the referendum. Nationalists asked the Archbishop of Barcelona and the Abbot of Montserrat to mediate between the Catalan Government and Madrid. But you know that Catalan nationalism - of both right and left - is suspicious of the church because it was predominantly pro Franco. I really wish some Roman Catholics could be a bit more publicly critical of their organisation. Not the beliefs but the way the church operates. Look at the fearsome mob in the Vatican opposing the current pope because they think he is too liberal. And the recent historical evidence which we all know about. I think it comes over as cover up and does the church no favours. |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Dec 4, 2017 14:40:37 GMT
Sweeping statement to start the week! Catalan nationalism includes many Catholic organisations, and the letter was condemning Catholic bishops and clerics who supported the referendum. Nationalists asked the Archbishop of Barcelona and the Abbot of Montserrat to mediate between the Catalan Government and Madrid. But you know that Catalan nationalism - of both right and left - is suspicious of the church because it was predominantly pro Franco. I really wish some Roman Catholics could be a bit more publicly critical of their organisation. Not the beliefs but the way the church operates. Look at the fearsome mob in the Vatican opposing the current pope because they think he is too liberal. And the recent historical evidence which we all know about. I think it comes over as cover up and does the church no favours. Not one thing I have written is deserving of that response so, to paraphrase you: "I really wish some critics of the Roman Catholic Church could be less quick to be critical of the organisation." The default position is to believe any generalisation against the Church. I stand by what I said, you made a sweeping generalisation and, rather than look into what I wrote, continue to generalise. Catholics, clerical and lay, are on both sides of the Catalan argument, as are many on the left? Indeed, some of the greatest opponents of Catalan independence are on the Spanish and Catalan left. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 4, 2017 15:37:34 GMT
CatholicLeft - if you just tell Merseymike that "Catholic" is spelled "M, u, s, l, i, m" then he won't say things like that any more 
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 4, 2017 15:51:18 GMT
You're just a tad obsessed with Muslims....you think about them far more than I do!
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 4, 2017 17:03:11 GMT
Of course I do! I've spent 25 years driving back Christian attitudes on blasphemy and intrusion into the public sphere in this country, and I'm mighty pissed off at having to re-fight the same battles, *again*, because right-on pratts have let the genie back out of the bottle for another religion!
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 4, 2017 17:10:42 GMT
Of course I do! I've spent 25 years driving back Christian attitudes on blasphemy and intrusion into the public sphere in this country, and I'm mighty pissed off at having to re-fight the same battles, *again*, because right-on pratts have let the genie back out of the bottle for another religion! Only they haven't. We don't have a blasphemy law, and all sorts of legislation which would not please conservative followers of both religions have been passed comfortably, often with all party backing. I'd agree that the boosting of religionist involvement in education is unwelcome, but all parties have backed that. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 4, 2017 17:52:24 GMT
The Spanish state broadcaster has organised a televised election debate for prime time on Thursday night.
Obviously Puigdemont will not be there in person, and following today's ruling Junqueras will clearly not be present either.
Personally I can't see how the ERC leader is likely to commit the same crimes he was imprisoned for during the campaign, considering the infractions he's accused of depend on him being both in office and in power.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 5, 2017 15:06:37 GMT
European Arrest Warrants have been dropped for Puigdemont and Co.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 15:42:29 GMT
GESOP poll has ERC rebounding.   |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 16, 2017 6:17:00 GMT
Yesterday was the last day that legal polls could be published, so a whole slew were released across the day. From now until election day, there will be 'unofficial' ones leaked via the Andorran press, which is now standard practice in Spain.
The polling average now has Ciutadans slightly ahead of the ERC, but it looks like it's going to be a close-run vote on Thursday either way.
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Dec 20, 2017 15:10:55 GMT
I'm currently in Barcelona now. I'm surprised how "quiet" it seems. Ciudadanos appear to be the most visible with leafleters and posters, followed closely by PSOE. Quite a few ERC posters too and I've seen one row of PP posters. Not seen any JxCat, Podemos or CUP paraphernalia.
There are of course tons of Spanish and Catalan flags of various hues as well as separatist flags and yellow ribbons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 15:23:17 GMT
I'm currently in Barcelona now. I'm surprised how "quiet" it seems. Ciudadanos appear to be the most visible with leafleters and posters, followed closely by PSOE. Quite a few ERC posters too and I've seen one row of PP posters. Not seen any JxCat, Podemos or CUP paraphernalia. There are of course tons of Spanish and Catalan flags of various hues as well as separatist flags and yellow ribbons. You mean PSC? Using the national brand would be counterproductive. |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Dec 20, 2017 16:08:37 GMT
Yes
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