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Post by Merseymike on Nov 27, 2017 15:00:01 GMT
I'd vote Podemos, who oppose narrow nationalism but recognise the need to enable self-determination because they're barking mad lefties FTFY  Well, that too! I'd vote for them in Spain no matter where I lived! |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 27, 2017 15:27:04 GMT
But when your reason for existence is to claim power back from one entity, particularly when nation states are so weakened in any case, in order to then hand much of it over to another entity, it doesn't make sense to me. Why not? If you gain more power than you lose its a win. I think you underestimate the power of nation states and overestimate the power of the EU. A sovereign Catalonia within the EU would have far more control over its own affairs than it has as an autonomous region within Spain. That depends entirely on how Spain uses its voice in the EU. If Spain speaks for Catalonia in the EU, then Catalonia will be heard much more loudly than if only independent Catalonia speaks for Catalonia in the EU. Independent Catalonia is a tiddler, and of little interest to the EU. Spain though is a big beast, and its voice carries weight. This is - of course - exactly the rationale for countries to join the EU in order to have a stronger voice on the world stage vs China and the USA. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2017 10:22:35 GMT
Pretty much a tie at the moment. Separatists (ERC, JxCat, CUP) 44.9% Moderates (CatComú-Podem) 9% Constitutionalists (PSC, Cs, PP) 42.2%  |
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
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Post by cibwr on Dec 2, 2017 11:57:34 GMT
Being a minority within a nation state controlled by another people is very different from being a sovereign state who is a member of an international organization, even one with as much influence as the EU. Whatever its critics say the EU isn't a state and isn't about to become one. I agree. But then I think that nationalism is full of internal contradictions, particularly nationalists who also claim to be left of centre. Many of us are left of centre. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2017 13:30:30 GMT
Pretty much a tie at the moment. Separatists (ERC, JxCat, CUP) 44.9% Moderates (CatComú-Podem) 9% Constitutionalists (PSC, Cs, PP) 42.2% As it always has been! However there is a majority for holding a legitimate referendum which I think would be lost. Podemos is pro self determination but anti-separatist |
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right
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Post by right on Dec 3, 2017 6:36:16 GMT
Never quite been able to see the logic of small countries wishing to leave the larger one of which they are part, yet join an even larger group of other countries. Mind you, never have got nationalism. Having said that, Spain need to recognise that their way of dealing with this issue hasn't worked. I'd vote Podemos, who oppose narrow nationalism but recognise the need to enable self-determination Being a minority within a nation state controlled by another people is very different from being a sovereign state who is a member of an international organization, even one with as much influence as the EU. Whatever its critics say the EU isn't a state and isn't about to become one. The Catalan independence crowd seem to accept that the EU won’t let them in - avoiding a fundamental mistake made by the Scottish Yes campaign. |
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right
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Post by right on Dec 3, 2017 6:45:40 GMT
Why not? If you gain more power than you lose its a win. I think you underestimate the power of nation states and overestimate the power of the EU. A sovereign Catalonia within the EU would have far more control over its own affairs than it has as an autonomous region within Spain. That depends entirely on how Spain uses its voice in the EU. If Spain speaks for Catalonia in the EU, then Catalonia will be heard much more loudly than if only independent Catalonia speaks for Catalonia in the EU. Independent Catalonia is a tiddler, and of little interest to the EU. Spain though is a big beast, and its voice carries weight. This is - of course - exactly the rationale for countries to join the EU in order to have a stronger voice on the world stage vs China and the USA. I think this is why pro EU Brits find the EU exasperating, they don't get it. For the British it is a transactional case, stronger trade voice externally and access to a prosperous goods and jobs market internally. But to Continental Europeans it's either about ending war, entrenching young democracies or solidarity against a Russian near neighbour. I probably would be Eurosceptic on the continent, but I recognise it's a harder call than the UK where these things don't apply. |
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right
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Post by right on Dec 3, 2017 6:48:11 GMT
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Post by mrpastelito on Dec 3, 2017 10:28:27 GMT
Extraordinary? Certainly not in Spain. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 3, 2017 13:31:12 GMT
And wouldn't have thought that it would necessarily help their case....
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Dec 3, 2017 17:48:20 GMT
Couldn't agree more. But its not really germane to @odo's point. If you are a small nation you will always be influenced/controlled by bigger, richer, stronger neighbours. Being a member of an organisation whose whole basis is that separate states have to co-operate gives you a formal structure in which you have voting rights, vetoes or whatever, and opportunities to form alliances with like-minded states; it gives you a half-way decent chance of negotiating treaties and trade deals with really big powers without being steamrollered. It's a completely different situation from being part of a unitary state with a different nation - or of being a satellite state of a mighty empire. The obvious alternative is federalism and I think in places where the nationalists plump for that you don't find such interest in membership of the EU (or whatever.) Hmmmm...not sure I agree. Being in the EU does mean giving up a lot of power, which is fine by me. But when your reason for existence is to claim power back from one entity, particularly when nation states are so weakened in any case, in order to then hand much of it over to another entity, it doesn't make sense to me. Would you say the same about Irish independence, logic would say that with Ireland's geographical position its would be a no brainer to stay British and within the Empire, history, resentment and longing for national identity made it inevitable that Ireland would want to be an independent nation. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 3, 2017 17:52:31 GMT
Hmmmm...not sure I agree. Being in the EU does mean giving up a lot of power, which is fine by me. But when your reason for existence is to claim power back from one entity, particularly when nation states are so weakened in any case, in order to then hand much of it over to another entity, it doesn't make sense to me. Would you say the same about Irish independence, logic would say that with Ireland's geographical position its would be a no brainer to stay British and within the Empire, history, resentment and longing for national identity made it inevitable that Ireland would want to be an independent nation. t the time and given the very clearly oppressive behaviour of the British state - no. The same for the colonialist regimes in much of the world. But the point I was making was much more about the conflict between civic nationalism and being part of supranational bodies. There seems to be something of a contradiction - so we reject being part of the larger nation taking away our powers, but we are prepared to give them to the supranational body instead. Of course Scotland and Catalonia's nationalist movements. for example, have quite a different attitude to the EU. |
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Dec 3, 2017 18:12:27 GMT
Would you say the same about Irish independence, logic would say that with Ireland's geographical position its would be a no brainer to stay British and within the Empire, history, resentment and longing for national identity made it inevitable that Ireland would want to be an independent nation. t the time and given the very clearly oppressive behaviour of the British state - no. The same for the colonialist regimes in much of the world. But the point I was making was much more about the conflict between civic nationalism and being part of supranational bodies. There seems to be something of a contradiction - so we reject being part of the larger nation taking away our powers, but we are prepared to give them to the supranational body instead. Of course Scotland and Catalonia's nationalist movements. for example, have quite a different attitude to the EU. I think its the desire to have equal status with fellow nations, I can understand the desire for the Celtic nations to want to be independent in the EU, the EU gives a huge free trade area and the protection of the stronger nations, France, Germany, ect, its gives Scotland or Wales a seat next to every other Nation, while in the UK they have very little say in British politics. What the EU should be is able of do is allow Catalans, Scots, Basques, Cornish so stand up as proud nations rather than be subjects of the Spanish, English and French. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 3, 2017 18:46:52 GMT
Truly the mouthpiece of Franco. Victory for the anti independence parties will come about in spite of this kind of nonsense. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Dec 3, 2017 19:26:19 GMT
Truly the mouthpiece of Franco. Victory for the anti independence parties will come about in spite of this kind of nonsense. Seriously neilm, what an over-the-top response. There are clerics and prelates on both sides of the argument, none of whom are fascists. For what it's worth, I am opposed to the breaking up of Spain, why would that make me a fascist? Mind you, I think the Church should be taking a step back in this debate. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 3, 2017 19:30:37 GMT
Truly the mouthpiece of Franco. Victory for the anti independence parties will come about in spite of this kind of nonsense. Seriously neilm, what an over-the-top response. There are clerics and prelates on both sides of the argument, none of whom are fascists. For what it's worth, I am opposed to the breaking up of Spain, why would that make me a fascist? Mind you, I think the Church should be taking a step back in this debate. It's the type of stuff they publicly came out with during the Francoisme. He won't have done this without PP approval. It's not helpful for either side for them to get involved in such strident terms. Actually, it's probably worth reading the original. |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Dec 3, 2017 19:51:38 GMT
Seriously neilm , what an over-the-top response. There are clerics and prelates on both sides of the argument, none of whom are fascists. For what it's worth, I am opposed to the breaking up of Spain, why would that make me a fascist? Mind you, I think the Church should be taking a step back in this debate. It's the type of stuff they publicly came out with during the Francoisme. He won't have done this without PP approval. It's not helpful for either side for them to get involved in such strident terms. Actually, it's probably worth reading the original. I have read the original report in the paper, and to suggest that Church leadership needs the permission of the PP to say anything is laughable. To hold an opinion on the breakup of your nation doesn't make you a Francoist. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 3, 2017 20:00:20 GMT
It's the type of stuff they publicly came out with during the Francoisme. He won't have done this without PP approval. It's not helpful for either side for them to get involved in such strident terms. Actually, it's probably worth reading the original. I have read the original report in the paper, and to suggest that Church leadership needs the permission of the PP to say anything is laughable. To hold an opinion on the breakup of your nation doesn't make you a Francoist. I haven't yet read the original, I was wondering if it was phrased slightly differently to the English language reporting. In this case, we have to agree to disagree. La Razon is right wing, Spanish nationalist, pro traditional church newspaper with deep ties to the PP. There is no way he wrote this without someone senior in the PP being aware of it and encouraging it. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 3, 2017 20:39:46 GMT
In Franco's time (although his régime self-identified as 'National Catholic'), no archbishop would've got away with defending the democratic order or referring to Catalonia as a nation. The 1978 Constitution only uses the phrase "historic nationality" rather than nation, and the courts unwisely struck down the latter phrase from the Catalan statute of autonomy in 2010.
I do of course agree that La Razón is an utterly despicable publication.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 3, 2017 21:00:50 GMT
In Franco's time (although his régime self-identified as 'National Catholic'), no archbishop would've got away with defending the democratic order or referring to Catalonia as a nation. The 1978 Constitution only uses the phrase "historic nationality" rather than nation, and the courts unwisely struck down the latter phrase from the Catalan statute of autonomy in 2010. I do of course agree that La Razón is an utterly despicable publication. Yes, it's utter shite. Controversial headlines to grab attention and thin on news. It's owned by Grupo Planeta, which was set up by a man who seized other people's printing presses in (amusingly) Barcelona literally at gun point and got away with it because of his close connections to the regime. |
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