Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 13:53:43 GMT
Latest yougov poll has lab/con 84 you must be pleased jigger
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 27, 2017 13:54:09 GMT
You mean there are others ? !  Of course - there are probably millions.   and what planet do they inhabit? |
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Post by andrew111 on Oct 27, 2017 14:29:01 GMT
Well, I think when you have gone from nowhere and not even standing for over 6 years to 31.2%, you are allowed a little bit of hype.... I think the Lib Dems in Ashbourne are entitled to think that a bit more effort would have given them the seat If they didn't stand, then they may have had a large latent vote which went unmeasured. I think the days of "latent vote for Lib Dem" are long gone. A Lib Dem vote can be dragged out almost anywhere but only at the cost of considerable effort. I do note that while getting only 6% in the constituency the Lib Dems did get 20% in the County division covering this ward this year (but with no Labour candidate), so I guess there is a vote there |
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 27, 2017 14:31:11 GMT
You mean there are others ? ! Of course - there are probably millions. I think its reasonable to say that while Tory and Labour activists strongly disagree we do understand each other. Whereas we both pretty much hate the LibDems - round here largely because of their dirty campaigning and Hocus Focus lie-sheets. Indeed the Tories put up candidates in our ward one year because they were concerned thst if they didn't the LibDems would get in. I used to know a former Tory councillor - jigger's parents would remember her. Jennie Kemp. She was unusual as a businesswoman in the day when few women held those jobs - she was head of personnel for Cunard. Always remember having a talk about gay rights with her and she saying that she really couldn't see what all the fuss was about and she didn't know how shed have managed to staff the cruise ships without them - she said to me "they used to call them Jennie's Queens!" Anyway she said to me as well that she lost her council seat to Labour, but that she'd always regarded the Labour councillors as people who she disagreed with but played fair. Whereas the emergence of the Liberals meant nasty campaigning and behaviour in council. That was my experience on the police authority as well which I sat on as an independent community rep. |
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Post by jigger on Oct 27, 2017 15:32:16 GMT
Of course - there are probably millions. I used to know a former Tory councillor - jigger's parents would remember her. Jennie Kemp. She was unusual as a businesswoman in the day when few women held those jobs - she was head of personnel for Cunard. Always remember having a talk about gay rights with her and she saying that she really couldn't see what all the fuss was about and she didn't know how shed have managed to staff the cruise ships without them - she said to me "they used to call them Jennie's Queens!" Anyway she said to me as well that she lost her council seat to Labour, but that she'd always regarded the Labour councillors as people who she disagreed with but played fair. Whereas the emergence of the Liberals meant nasty campaigning and behaviour in council. That was my experience on the police authority as well which I sat on as an independent community rep. I knew Cllr Jenny Kemp and met her a few times - indeed I remember getting a prize from her at my primary school when she was the Mayor in the late 1980s. She was very entertaining and full of life and she stayed behind after the ceremony to talk to us individually. My parents obviously knew her much better than me and they went to her funeral when she sadly died a few years ago - having just checked online I see that more than 400 people attended which is no surprise, given how popular she was. |
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Post by middleenglander on Oct 27, 2017 15:33:03 GMT
Charnwood Loughborough Hastings - 2 Labour holds | Party | 2017 votes
candidate 1
| 2017 votes
candidate 2
| 2017 votes
average | 2017 share
average | since 2015 "top" | since 2015 "average" | since 2013 B | since 2011 "top" | since 2011 "average" | | Labour | 676 | 648 | 662 | 63.5% | +18.1% | +18.4% | +2.2% | -2.0% | -3.7% | Conservative | 228 |
| 228 | 21.9% | -1.5% | -0.8% | +7.8% | -12.6% | -10.9% | UKIP | 95 | 79 | 87 | 8.3% | -8.8% | -9.3% | -3.9% | from nowhere | from nowhere | Green | 73 | 58 | 66 | 6.3% | -7.8% | -8.3% | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | British Democratic |
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| -9.4% |
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| Liberal Democrat |
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| -2.9% |
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| Total votes | 1,072
| 785
| 1,043 |
| 35% | 36% | 116% | 59% | 62% |
Swing Conservative to Labour 9¾% / 9½% since 2015 and 5¼% / 3½% since 2011 but Labour to Conservative 2¾% since 2013 by-election Council now 41 Conservative, 9 Labour, 1 Liberal Democrat Derbyshire Dales, Ashbourne South - Conservative hold | Party | 2017 votes | 2017 share | since 2015 "top" | since 2015 "average" | since 2011 "top" | since 2011 "average" | Conservative | 495 | 46.2% | -7.6% | -6.4% | -19.3% | -15.0% | Liberal Democrat | 334 | 31.2% | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | Labour | 242 | 22.6% | -1.9% | -2.5% | -11.9% | -16.2% | Green |
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| -21.7% | -22.2% |
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| Total votes | 1,071 |
| 44% | 45% | 80% |
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Swing not meaningful Council now 29 Conservative, 5 Labour, 3 Liberal Democrat, 2 Independent Herefordshire, Kings Acre - Conservative gain from Its Our County| Party | 2017 votes | 2017 share | since 2015 | | Conservative | 302 | 38.5% | from nowhere | Independent | 162 | 20.6% | from nowhere | Its Our County | 156 | 19.9% | -30.2% | Liberal Democrat | 90 | 11.5% | -21.9% | Labour | 75 | 9.6% | from nowhere | Previous Independent |
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| -16.6% | Total votes | 785 |
| 51% |
Swing not meaningful Council now 28 Conservative, 10 Its Our County, 8 Independent, 3 Green, 2 Liberal Democrat, 1 No Party, 1 Vacant Kirklees, Batley East - Labour hold | Party | 2017 votes | 2017 share | since 2016 | since 2015 | since 2014 | since 2012 | Labour | 2,640 | 77.0% | +7.2% | +14.1% | +27.3% | +4.0% | Conservative | 443 | 12.9% | +1.0% | -13.0% | +3.1% | -1.0% | Independent | 140 | 4.1% | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | Liberal Democrat | 136 | 4.0% | -1.0% | -1.5% | -0.7% | -0.5% | Green | 70 | 2.0% | -1.1% | -2.2% | -5.1% | from nowhere | Previous Independent |
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| -10.2% |
| -25.2% | -8.7% | TUSC |
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| -1.4% | -3.4%
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| Total votes | 3,429 |
| 69% | 41% | 64% | 65% |
Swing Conservative to Labour ~ 3% since 2016, 13½% since 2015, 12% since 2014 (if meaningful) and 2½% since 2012 Council now 33 Labour, 20 Conservative, 9 Liberal Democrat, 3 Green, 3 Valley Independent, 1 Independent Mid Sussex, East Grinstead Imberhorne - Conservative hold | Party | 2017 votes | 2017 share | since 2015 "top" | since 2015 "average" | since 2011 "top" | since 2011 "average" | | Conservative | 540 | 58.5% | -2.0% | -1.2% | +6.0% | +5.3% | Liberal Democrat | 206 | 22.3% | from nowhere | from nowhere | -25.2% | -24.4% | Labour | 110 | 11.9% | -8.7% | -9.1% | from nowhere | from nowhere | Independent | 67 | 7.3% | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | UKIP |
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| -18.8% | -19.2% |
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| Total votes | 923 |
| 33% | 33% | 51% | 56% |
Swing, if meaningful, Labour to Conservative 3½% / 4% since 2015 but more meaningful Liberal Democrat to Conservative ~ 15% since 2011 Council now 53 Conservative 1 Liberal Democrat Tameside, Droylsden East - Labour hold | Party | 2017 votes | 2017 share | since 2016 | since 2015 | since 2014 | since 2012 | Labour | 1,064 | 60.3% | +8.9% | +6.2% | +12.8% | -1.2% | Conservative | 577 | 32.7% | +23.6% | from nowhere | +24.4% | +24.4% | Liberal Democrat | 63 | 3.6% | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | from nowhere | Green | 60 | 3.4% | -2.5% | -4.2% | -2.0% | -0.0% | UKIP
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| -33.6%
| -32.5%
| -38.8%
| -18.0%
| Independent |
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| -5.7% |
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| BNP
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| -8.8%
| Total votes | 1,764 |
| 63% | 34% | 59% | 66% |
Swing, if meaningful, Labour to Conservative ~ 7¼% since 2016, 5¾% since 2014 and 12¾% since 2012 Council now 51 Labour, 6 Conservative
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 11,438 
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Post by iain on Oct 27, 2017 15:44:18 GMT
Of course - there are probably millions. I think its reasonable to say that while Tory and Labour activists strongly disagree we do understand each other. Whereas we both pretty much hate the LibDems - round here largely because of their dirty campaigning and Hocus Focus lie-sheets. Indeed the Tories put up candidates in our ward one year because they were concerned thst if they didn't the LibDems would get in. I used to know a former Tory councillor - jigger's parents would remember her. Jennie Kemp. She was unusual as a businesswoman in the day when few women held those jobs - she was head of personnel for Cunard. Always remember having a talk about gay rights with her and she saying that she really couldn't see what all the fuss was about and she didn't know how shed have managed to staff the cruise ships without them - she said to me "they used to call them Jennie's Queens!" Anyway she said to me as well that she lost her council seat to Labour, but that she'd always regarded the Labour councillors as people who she disagreed with but played fair. Whereas the emergence of the Liberals meant nasty campaigning and behaviour in council. That was my experience on the police authority as well which I sat on as an independent community rep. Well, here in Sheffield we get on fine with the Greens, UKIP and Tories (when they existed) whereas Labour are pretty universally disliked. The reason Labour dislike us here is that we have the temerity to make them do some work in areas which they see as rightly theirs. I imagine that this is behind lots of dislike towards the Lib Dem’s TBH. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 16:15:49 GMT
I cant say ive got that feeling but ive only just moved to Sheffield
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,784
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 27, 2017 16:23:42 GMT
The LibDems are much more of a localist party than the others, so that probably lends it to having bits of it developing characters more at odds with the whole, both geographically and "vertically". At my PPC training years ago there was one chap who went on about "chucking out the foreigners", we wondered how he had decided the LibDems was the party for him to join and seek election in.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 27, 2017 17:45:35 GMT
Of course - there are probably millions. I think its reasonable to say that while Tory and Labour activists strongly disagree we do understand each other. Whereas we both pretty much hate the LibDems - round here largely because of their dirty campaigning and Hocus Focus lie-sheets.Indeed the Tories put up candidates in our ward one year because they were concerned thst if they didn't the LibDems would get in. I used to know a former Tory councillor - jigger's parents would remember her. Jennie Kemp. She was unusual as a businesswoman in the day when few women held those jobs - she was head of personnel for Cunard. Always remember having a talk about gay rights with her and she saying that she really couldn't see what all the fuss was about and she didn't know how shed have managed to staff the cruise ships without them - she said to me "they used to call them Jennie's Queens!" Anyway she said to me as well that she lost her council seat to Labour, but that she'd always regarded the Labour councillors as people who she disagreed with but played fair. Whereas the emergence of the Liberals meant nasty campaigning and behaviour in council. That was my experience on the police authority as well which I sat on as an independent community rep. No, no - the correct phrase is "Hocus Pocus in the Focus". Keep up at the back! On a slightly more serious note I had 20+ years of Labour accusing me of "lies in the Focus". Strangely they never offered an example ... In 28 years I had to publish precisely one apology, and that was to a local business not the Labour Party. [I had described a hedge as having been cut back after the issue was raised by the Lib Dem councillors. The property owner (a business) insisted that had commissioned the work prior to our raising the matter. We were happy to clarify and apologise.) |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 27, 2017 17:47:16 GMT
I think its reasonable to say that while Tory and Labour activists strongly disagree we do understand each other. Whereas we both pretty much hate the LibDems - round here largely because of their dirty campaigning and Hocus Focus lie-sheets. Indeed the Tories put up candidates in our ward one year because they were concerned thst if they didn't the LibDems would get in. I used to know a former Tory councillor - jigger's parents would remember her. Jennie Kemp. She was unusual as a businesswoman in the day when few women held those jobs - she was head of personnel for Cunard. Always remember having a talk about gay rights with her and she saying that she really couldn't see what all the fuss was about and she didn't know how shed have managed to staff the cruise ships without them - she said to me "they used to call them Jennie's Queens!" Anyway she said to me as well that she lost her council seat to Labour, but that she'd always regarded the Labour councillors as people who she disagreed with but played fair. Whereas the emergence of the Liberals meant nasty campaigning and behaviour in council. That was my experience on the police authority as well which I sat on as an independent community rep. Well, here in Sheffield we get on fine with the Greens, UKIP and Tories (when they existed) whereas Labour are pretty universally disliked. The reason Labour dislike us here is that we have the temerity to make them do some work in areas which they see as rightly theirs. I imagine that this is behind lots of dislike towards the Lib Dem’s TBH. Labour were very nice to us round here. Until we started to win seats. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 27, 2017 17:49:03 GMT
The LibDems are much more of a localist party than the others, so that probably lends it to having bits of it developing characters more at odds with the whole, both geographically and "vertically". At my PPC training years ago there was one chap who went on about "chucking out the foreigners", we wondered how he had decided the LibDems was the party for him to join and seek election in. But I have met "chuck out the foreigner" types in all parties. Even Labour. Actually quite a few in Labour. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2017 18:14:39 GMT
my experience of the local lib dems is while they are perfectly nice people they run the local council like orange bookers and so it came as no surprise to me they would govern in coalition as orange bookers. The only thing that strikes me as odd is the dislike the old liberals have of the social democrats. This ideological divide I've only ever seen from local lib dems. The local labour and conservative parties don't seem to be divided over such ideological differences as they are higher up.
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Post by jigger on Oct 27, 2017 18:24:05 GMT
I think its reasonable to say that while Tory and Labour activists strongly disagree we do understand each other. Whereas we both pretty much hate the LibDems - round here largely because of their dirty campaigning and Hocus Focus lie-sheets. Indeed the Tories put up candidates in our ward one year because they were concerned thst if they didn't the LibDems would get in. I used to know a former Tory councillor - jigger's parents would remember her. Jennie Kemp. She was unusual as a businesswoman in the day when few women held those jobs - she was head of personnel for Cunard. Always remember having a talk about gay rights with her and she saying that she really couldn't see what all the fuss was about and she didn't know how shed have managed to staff the cruise ships without them - she said to me "they used to call them Jennie's Queens!" Anyway she said to me as well that she lost her council seat to Labour, but that she'd always regarded the Labour councillors as people who she disagreed with but played fair. Whereas the emergence of the Liberals meant nasty campaigning and behaviour in council. That was my experience on the police authority as well which I sat on as an independent community rep. Well, here in Sheffield we get on fine with the Greens, UKIP and Tories (when they existed) whereas Labour are pretty universally disliked. The reason Labour dislike us here is that we have the temerity to make them do some work in areas which they see as rightly theirs. I imagine that this is behind lots of dislike towards the Lib Dem’s TBH. I've probably misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that there are no Tories in Sheffield? Because, although I haven't checked, I would have thought that the Tories came second in Sheffield in the General election this June. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 27, 2017 18:38:46 GMT
I increasingly think that while the comprehensive system is superior to a grammar/secondary modern system it is not the answer to all our educational woes. It seems that whatever school you put WC children in, if the backing isn't there at home, the difference in terms of outcomes will be slight. As andrew111 says this is evidenced in Kirklees where WC British Asian children and WC White British children, despite coming from households with very similar incomes, go down very different roads in terms of academic achievement and social mobility. So it seems like the battle is not with the system as much as the attitudes of the parents and through what prism they bring their children up to see education. I know it sounds a bit nanny state but maybe provide poorer parents with book tokens for children's books or have compulsory trips to the library for all new parents. I am now working in education. I am aware of cases where parents won't even turn up to parents' evenings or even send their kids to school with a breakfast in them (this isn't even the kids who get free school meals). It doesn't matter what the system is- there are always families who will not support their kids' education. I was lucky to have parents who left school at 16 but who were very, very keen that I get an education. I get your point but there's no appetite in this country for anything smacking of compulsion- forcing people to take an interest in their kids' education is regarded as an imposition by some, and patronising the poor by others. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312
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Post by maxque on Oct 27, 2017 19:36:24 GMT
I increasingly think that while the comprehensive system is superior to a grammar/secondary modern system it is not the answer to all our educational woes. It seems that whatever school you put WC children in, if the backing isn't there at home, the difference in terms of outcomes will be slight. As andrew111 says this is evidenced in Kirklees where WC British Asian children and WC White British children, despite coming from households with very similar incomes, go down very different roads in terms of academic achievement and social mobility. So it seems like the battle is not with the system as much as the attitudes of the parents and through what prism they bring their children up to see education. I know it sounds a bit nanny state but maybe provide poorer parents with book tokens for children's books or have compulsory trips to the library for all new parents. I am now working in education. I am aware of cases where parents won't even turn up to parents' evenings or even send their kids to school with a breakfast in them (this isn't even the kids who get free school meals). It doesn't matter what the system is- there are always families who will not support their kids' education. I was lucky to have parents who left school at 16 but who were very, very keen that I get an education. I get your point but there's no appetite in this country for anything smacking of compulsion- forcing people to take an interest in their kids' education is regarded as an imposition by some, and patronising the poor by others. Well, let some and others complain and let's do the right thing? |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,784
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 27, 2017 19:39:13 GMT
No, no - the correct phrase is "Hocus Pocus in the Focus". Keep up at the back! It was LibDem Out Of Focus and Labour Out Of Touch when I worra lad. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,784
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 27, 2017 19:47:36 GMT
Well, here in Sheffield we get on fine with the Greens, UKIP and Tories (when they existed) whereas Labour are pretty universally disliked. The reason Labour dislike us here is that we have the temerity to make them do some work in areas which they see as rightly theirs. I imagine that this is behind lots of dislike towards the Lib Dem’s TBH. I've probably misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that there are no Tories in Sheffield? Because, although I haven't checked, I would have thought that the Tories came second in Sheffield in the General election this June. Correct. Labour: 56, LibDem: 20, UKIP: 4, Green: 4. No Tories since 2008, see link. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 27, 2017 19:51:34 GMT
I am now working in education. I am aware of cases where parents won't even turn up to parents' evenings or even send their kids to school with a breakfast in them (this isn't even the kids who get free school meals). It doesn't matter what the system is- there are always families who will not support their kids' education. I was lucky to have parents who left school at 16 but who were very, very keen that I get an education. I get your point but there's no appetite in this country for anything smacking of compulsion- forcing people to take an interest in their kids' education is regarded as an imposition by some, and patronising the poor by others. Well, let some and others complain and let's do the right thing? I would be inclined to agree. But what kind of sanctions is society willing to impose? |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 27, 2017 20:20:28 GMT
my experience of the local lib dems is while they are perfectly nice people they run the local council like orange bookers and so it came as no surprise to me they would govern in coalition as orange bookers. The only thing that strikes me as odd is the dislike the old liberals have of the social democrats. This ideological divide I've only ever seen from local lib dems. The local labour and conservative parties don't seem to be divided over such ideological differences as they are higher up. The distinction has disappeared in most places by now but it has certainly been present in the past. And I plead guilty. Very much so. |
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