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Post by justin124 on Apr 18, 2017 0:14:56 GMT
But to say that Iraq was a 'mistake' is like saying that the attack on Poland was a 'mistake'.Those responsible for that were eventually tried at Nuremberg and most were strung up. No attempt has been made to hold Blair and Bush to account for their crimes.In terms of the Nuremberg Indictment relating to 'Planning for Aggressive War' both were more culpable than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop. Even today we read how the British establishment is seeking to thwart attempts to pursue a private prosecution against Blair , Straw & Goldsmith. When the legal avenues are closed off in this way, it becomes difficult not to feel sympathy for those who resort to other means to obtain justice. Personally I would be perfectly happy to see Blair share Bin Laden's fate - including being dumped at sea. Im sorry that is totally ridiculous. The nazis were hellbent on murdering or enslaving pretty much the whole of eastern europe, Caucasus and most of Northern Europe 100 million plus people. They were amongst the most evil and insane tyrants ever to have ruled a country. On the contrary Blair and Bush wanted to get rid of a tyrant in a fairly insignificant muddle eastern state. The two are not even vaguely on the same ballpark. I accept that the scale was very different , but we are still looking at two examples of an independent state being the victim of aggression by a much more powerful state(s). The principle was very much the same.Moreover, the Nazi plans were to a very large extent Hitler's personal plans - others such as Goering and Goebbels did not want war in 1939. Ribbentrop was certainly egging Hitler on, and other leaders lapped up the easy victories and conquests of the first two years of the war.Hitler was never tried because he was already dead - as were the principal organisers of the Holocaust and other Crimes against Humanity - Himmler & Heydrich. If Iraq had had the technical capability to drop bombs on British and US cities , we would have made sure that those responsible were put on trial. Our failure to hand over our own leaders to face judgement from an independent Criminal Court rightly damns us and exposes our hypocrisy.The rest of the world knows this but remains impotent. Faced with this why should we be surprised that an assassin or suicide bomber might one day resolve to do the world a great favour in the interests of justice. Some of us would 'rejoice at such news'. You refer to the 'Free World ' and 'Moral Supremacy'. There is nothing very 'Free' about a world in which we have to bow to the wishes of the most powerful state and meekly accept submission. Trump today has no more respect for International Law than did Hitler in the late 30s /early 40s - and the same was true of the likes of Bush & Blair before him. There is certainly very little that the US has to feel 'Morally Supreme' about. There is probably no more aggressive power on earth when we consider the pain and suffering resulting from Wars in Vietnam and so many interventions in other countries since World War 2. Its own commitment to democracy is skin deep as evidenced by the use of the CIA and other agencies to undermine democratically elected governments of which it disapproved. It remains a highly racist state - particularly in the South - and ,of course, we must never forget the heritage of its own domestic Holocaust - as reflected in the widespread slaughter of the Red Indian population in the late 19th century.There is not much that is 'morally supreme' about the US - and very often there appears to be little evidence of much that is decent. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 0:23:02 GMT
Im sorry that is totally ridiculous. The nazis were hellbent on murdering or enslaving pretty much the whole of eastern europe, Caucasus and most of Northern Europe 100 million plus people. They were amongst the most evil and insane tyrants ever to have ruled a country. On the contrary Blair and Bush wanted to get rid of a tyrant in a fairly insignificant muddle eastern state. The two are not even vaguely on the same ballpark. I accept that the scale was very different , but we are still looking at two examples of an independent state being the victim of aggression by a much more powerful state(s). The principle was very much the same.Moreover, the Nazi plans were to a very large extent Hitler's personal plans - others such as Goering and Goebbels did not want war in 1939. Ribbentrop was certainly egging Hitler on, and other leaders lapped up the easy victories and conquests of the first two years of the war.Hitler was never tried because he was already dead - as were the principal organisers of the Holocaust and other Crimes against Humanity - Himmler & Heydrich. If Iraq had had the technical capability to drop bombs on British and US cities , we would have made sure that those responsible were put on trial. Our failure to hand over our own leaders to face judgement from an independent Criminal Court rightly damns us and exposes our hypocrisy.The rest of the world knows this but remains impotent. Faced with this why should we be surprised that an assassin or suicide bomber might one day resolve to do the world a great favour in the interests of justice. Some of us would 'rejoice at such news'. Motives are everything though. And there were legitimate reasons to invade Iraq to get rid if Saddam. He murfered a decent number of his own people. I happen to personally think the motives were not sufficient to warrant it a wise decision, but an immoral one - can it ever be profoundly immoral to remoce the head of state of a country who acts in the way Saddam did? Not for me - not proven at worst. Finally we get onto the question of whether its a criminal decision - non starter because as discussed above such acts are de facto not covered by any supranational law (which court?) |
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Post by justin124 on Apr 18, 2017 0:37:35 GMT
I accept that the scale was very different , but we are still looking at two examples of an independent state being the victim of aggression by a much more powerful state(s). The principle was very much the same.Moreover, the Nazi plans were to a very large extent Hitler's personal plans - others such as Goering and Goebbels did not want war in 1939. Ribbentrop was certainly egging Hitler on, and other leaders lapped up the easy victories and conquests of the first two years of the war.Hitler was never tried because he was already dead - as were the principal organisers of the Holocaust and other Crimes against Humanity - Himmler & Heydrich. If Iraq had had the technical capability to drop bombs on British and US cities , we would have made sure that those responsible were put on trial. Our failure to hand over our own leaders to face judgement from an independent Criminal Court rightly damns us and exposes our hypocrisy.The rest of the world knows this but remains impotent. Faced with this why should we be surprised that an assassin or suicide bomber might one day resolve to do the world a great favour in the interests of justice. Some of us would 'rejoice at such news'. Motives are everything though. And there were legitimate reasons to invade Iraq to get rid if Saddam. He murfered a decent number of his own people. I happen to personally think the motives were not sufficient to warrant it a wise decision, but an immoral one - can it ever be profoundly immoral to remoce the head of state of a country who acts in the way Saddam did? Not for me - not proven at worst. Finally we get onto the question of whether its a criminal decision - non starter because as discussed above such acts are de facto not covered by any supranational law (which court?) We found a Court to try the Nazi leaders - if the will to see justice really done exists a way would be found. The Court at the Hague would be a good place to start.In truth, there is no interest in justice.The British and US states have killed their own people in the past when it suited them. Saddam Hussein's crimes were years earlier, when we not only were content to sit back and do nothing but went to great lengths to arm him in his war with Iran. |
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Post by AdminSTB on Apr 18, 2017 7:19:00 GMT
*AHEM* If we could stick to the subject of Manchester Gorton.
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Post by andrew111 on Apr 18, 2017 7:33:14 GMT
*AHEM* If we could stick to the subject of Manchester Gorton.[/qruote] To be fair, one of the candidates in Gorton has prosecuting Tony Blair as his main platform (or money-making scheme, some would say), so a discussion of whether that will resonate with people in Gorton would be quite relevant.. However comparisons with the Nazis are ALWAYS a mistake on discussion boards and Justin seems rather prone to them... |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Apr 18, 2017 10:25:37 GMT
Don't know about the timing, but quite possible that Manchester Gorton will be the first byelection since 1924 to be cancelled by a dissolution of Parliament.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 18, 2017 10:28:47 GMT
I wonder if the Lib Dems will be caught in a bind. Vast resources must be being thrown at Gorton- now surely they need to be sent back to Withington, Cheadle and Hazel Grove.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Apr 18, 2017 10:29:15 GMT
Will the Gorgeous One seek another seat?
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johnloony
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Post by johnloony on Apr 18, 2017 11:18:53 GMT
Don't know about the timing, but quite possible that Manchester Gorton will be the first byelection since 1924 to be cancelled by a dissolution of Parliament. If so, she's a spoilsport as well as an opportunist. |
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Post by andrew111 on Apr 18, 2017 11:20:11 GMT
Don't know about the timing, but quite possible that Manchester Gorton will be the first byelection since 1924 to be cancelled by a dissolution of Parliament. 25 working days before June 8th looks like just before May 4th (I confess I am not sure what "before"means legally, but there is a bank holiday in there But surely cancelling an election one day before when up to 8000 people have already voted would cause absolute chaos! Postal votes go out on Friday... Anyway I think Corbyn has demonstrated his 100% lack of any political nous by going along with this. All Labour have to do is abstain, the motion will fail under the FTPA, and May will look incredibly weak as her only option becomes to call a vote of no confidence in herself! |
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Post by timrollpickering on Apr 18, 2017 11:37:17 GMT
Don't know about the timing, but quite possible that Manchester Gorton will be the first byelection since 1924 to be cancelled by a dissolution of Parliament. Which one was that? There was one in 1923 in Warwick & Leamington (the Conservative candidate was Anthony Eden, the Labour candidate was the Countess of Warwick). |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Apr 18, 2017 11:38:13 GMT
1924 was London University.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Apr 18, 2017 11:46:14 GMT
I wonder if the Lib Dems will be caught in a bind. Vast resources must be being thrown at Gorton- now surely they need to be sent back to Withington, Cheadle and Hazel Grove. I can hear the handbrake turns from here!  More seriously, presumably a good result in Gorton would do Cheadle etc a world of good? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 18, 2017 11:47:41 GMT
I wonder if the Lib Dems will be caught in a bind. Vast resources must be being thrown at Gorton- now surely they need to be sent back to Withington, Cheadle and Hazel Grove. I can hear the handbrake turns from here! More seriously, presumably a good result in Gorton would do Cheadle etc a world of good? Possibly, although you'd imagine that they'd go for Withington as priority. I suspect Cheadle will revert to LD but the Tories will hold Hazel Grove. |
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Post by lancastrian on Apr 18, 2017 11:52:20 GMT
BBC reporting that the by election WILL happen.
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Post by sisterjude on Apr 18, 2017 11:55:43 GMT
I can hear the handbrake turns from here! More seriously, presumably a good result in Gorton would do Cheadle etc a world of good? Possibly, although you'd imagine that they'd go for Withington as priority. I suspect Cheadle will revert to LD but the Tories will hold Hazel Grove. Bit of a dilemma for them. Whilst Gorton has been getting plenty of help from around the country, Withington, Cheadle and Hazel Grove activists have been providing the core of the regular team. Also - they may have an outside shot at winning Gorton, but I'm not convinced the likelihood is any greater than winning Withington. The flip side of that is you'd be loathed to pull the plug after devoting so much time and money to the seat. Glad I'm not making the call! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 11:55:43 GMT
I'm going to try doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ 's patience even further by mentioning that the last private battle in England was fought in 1469 (right in the middle of the Wars of the Roses, but nothing to do with them) at Nibley Green in Gloucestershire, and that the main source of information about it is the civil law case which the loser's mother brought against the victor and several of his supporters, even though the plaintiff's (deceased) son had freely agreed to the battle. (She got damages, but the defendant got to hang on to Berkeley Castle, which was the point of the affair.) Back then the idea that law had no relevance to war and that anything went was not accepted. But then they were more civilised than we are. The battle was fought over an entail and when I first read about it, it struck me that Pride and Prejudice would have been a very different story if written 300 years earlier. According to the Wiki article he was the one that proposed the battle. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 18, 2017 11:56:32 GMT
BBC reporting that the by election WILL happen. I would like to have this confirmed by a reliable source |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Apr 18, 2017 12:00:17 GMT
BBC reporting that the by election WILL happen. I would like to have this confirmed by a reliable source I don't understand how it can't happen given the fact it's already started. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 12:06:26 GMT
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