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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 16:54:38 GMT
Paul Mason is a loon. He can bang on about how the country wants radical leftism all he wants. The same page in the Guardian makes it fairly clear than in Copeland at least, that's not what Labour voters want. That's as valid an observation as his. The Copeland electorate have not just voted Tory because Corbyn isn't left wing enough! However, the question is also what the purpose of the Labour party is. The first people who need to decide this are the Labour party, which they appear totally unable to do at the moment. If its to get elected irrespective of policy, then thats very different from seeing themselves as having an essential stance which may or may not be popular at any given time. Personally, I see the current changes as a long-term project, which is not something which British politics is ever very good at dealing with. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 24, 2017 16:56:09 GMT
Paul Mason is a loon. He can bang on about how the country wants radical leftism all he wants. The same page in the Guardian makes it fairly clear than in Copeland at least, that's not what Labour voters want. That's as valid an observation as his. The Copeland electorate have not just voted Tory because Corbyn isn't left wing enough! However, the question is also what the purpose of the Labour party is. The first people who need to decide this are the Labour party, which they appear totally unable to do at the moment. If its to get elected irrespective of policy, then thats very different from seeing themselves as having an essential stance which may or may not be popular at any given time. Personally, I see the current changes as a long-term project, which is not something which British politics is ever very good at dealing with. I see the difference being that you want to persuade people of something, Mason goes for the old false consciousness gig. |
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 16:56:40 GMT
They're still not voting, mostly. As we all suspected. I remember one or two posters on here,who mainly don't post any more, being convinced of such a concept. But unless they can be energised to vote, then I don't see any future for the Labour party other than a party of opposition. As I say, its going to be a long-term project.... |
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tcpb
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Post by tcpb on Feb 24, 2017 16:58:32 GMT
I was surprised that you had a full time paid agent for Stoke just to get 2,000 votes. With leaflet costs and outside support, I doubt if the bill is much under £20,000 expended or am I wrong? No idea, I have no involvement with the GPEW. Sorry - posted in wrong thread. |
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tcpb
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Post by tcpb on Feb 24, 2017 16:59:35 GMT
No idea, I have no involvement with the GPEW. I assume this refers to the Lib Dems and not GPEW - who got nowhere near 2000 votes and I'd be amazed if they had a paid agent. Yes the Lib Dems - just getting used to this Forum's structure. |
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 17:11:28 GMT
It's not my job to make the Corbynites feel comfortable that they've managed to lose a seat that's been Labour for 80 years. It is my job to make them feel as uncomfortable about it as I possibly can. Love it. love it. All in full view now. Draw up a chair Blue Tem and watch the fight. Indeed. And I'd rather lose it forever than have the party go back to the sort of policies Davıd Boothroyd believes in. But then, this is something which has to happen - Labour needs to decide what it believes and what sort of party it is going to be. |
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Post by andrew111 on Feb 24, 2017 17:13:29 GMT
Just to reiterate! I was not making a prediction of Lib Dem gains earlier! I just went down the list of Lib Dem targets for ones where the Tories might squeeze UKIP (as in Copeland) and ones where the Lib Dems might squeeze Labour.. I am not taking into account things like first time incumbency (which helps good Mp's so can at least theoretically help the Tories), buyer's remorse (which saw Adrian Sanders re-elected on Torbay council with some Putinesque vote share), closure of hospitals, or Heathrow. Just trying to evaluate where the Lib Dems might close the gap on the Tories and where they might pull away...
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right
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Post by right on Feb 24, 2017 17:16:37 GMT
Love it. love it. All in full view now. Draw up a chair Blue Tem and watch the fight. Indeed. And I'd rather lose it forever than have the party go back to the sort of policies Davıd Boothroyd believes in. But then, this is something which has to happen - Labour needs to decide what it believes and what sort of party it is going to be. Lose forever? Don't you think your voters could get impatient with that and just go somewhere else? |
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 17:17:31 GMT
Owen Smith was not "my side". He was on the left of the party. And there is no "Blair-clone" candidate available. Sorry, but it just shows how utterly out of touch with what we actually think that you regard Smith as being on the left of the party. He isn't, and never has been. As for the Blair-clone candidate, none has wanted to put themselves forward, perhaps because they don't wish to lose. All this does illustrate how the party needs to make some decisions as to what it wants to be. It can't continue indefinitely as things are. |
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 17:19:32 GMT
Indeed. And I'd rather lose it forever than have the party go back to the sort of policies Davıd Boothroyd believes in. But then, this is something which has to happen - Labour needs to decide what it believes and what sort of party it is going to be. Lose forever? Don't you think your voters could get impatient with that and just go somewhere else? I'm sure some would, but you have missed the point.....there are already other parties people can go to. Labour need to decide what it wants to be, and then at least it would be a reasonably united force. At the moment it is anything but. |
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right
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Post by right on Feb 24, 2017 17:20:36 GMT
Owen Smith was not "my side". He was on the left of the party. And there is no "Blair-clone" candidate available. Sorry, but it just shows how utterly out of touch with what we actually think that you regard Smith as being on the left of the party. He isn't, and never has been. As for the Blair-clone candidate, none has wanted to put themselves forward, perhaps because they don't wish to lose. All this does illustrate how the party needs to make some decisions as to what it wants to be. It can't continue indefinitely as things are. He ran on a left wing platform for leadership, even if it was at times to the right of Corbyn (except on ISIS). |
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right
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Post by right on Feb 24, 2017 17:21:55 GMT
Lose forever? Don't you think your voters could get impatient with that and just go somewhere else? I'm sure some would, but you have missed the point.....there are already other parties people can go to. Labour need to decide what it wants to be, and then at least it would be a reasonably united force. At the moment it is anything but. I will never get the point of politics as a vehicle for virtue signalling rather than a vehicle for change. |
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tcpb
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Post by tcpb on Feb 24, 2017 17:23:53 GMT
Andrew111. Once a LD MP is defeated the constituency tends to become very hard to win back for the LDs. Their cllr base (as a %) is back to the level of early 1980s and their gains have been few in number, but prominent in the headlines that come from by elections. The LDs lost 500 cllrs in total in 2009+2013. How many of those will they get back? 20%?, 40%? 50%? or more?
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 17:30:39 GMT
Sorry, but it just shows how utterly out of touch with what we actually think that you regard Smith as being on the left of the party. He isn't, and never has been. As for the Blair-clone candidate, none has wanted to put themselves forward, perhaps because they don't wish to lose. All this does illustrate how the party needs to make some decisions as to what it wants to be. It can't continue indefinitely as things are. He ran on a left wing platform for leadership, even if it was at times to the right of Corbyn (except on ISIS). Yes, but that means nothing - it was so painfully phoney and unconvincing. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 24, 2017 17:32:45 GMT
Owen Smith was not "my side". He was on the left of the party. And there is no "Blair-clone" candidate available. Sorry, but it just shows how utterly out of touch with what we actually think that you regard Smith as being on the left of the party. He isn't, and never has been. I'm afraid what that shows is that Corbynites simply do not realise how extreme their own politics are. Remember that terms 'extreme left' etc are comparative ones, not absolute ones. Owen Smith is plainly on the left of the Labour Party and can only be viewed as on the right by those so far over to the left that their perspective has been distorted. |
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 17:33:27 GMT
I'm sure some would, but you have missed the point.....there are already other parties people can go to. Labour need to decide what it wants to be, and then at least it would be a reasonably united force. At the moment it is anything but. I will never get the point of politics as a vehicle for virtue signalling rather than a vehicle for change. Again, you assume that a Labour party led from its right wing would want any sort of change at all - to me its at most tweaking at the edges. Achieving real change will take a lot more than just winning over a few swing voters to an anodyne programme which is barely different from that of the Tories. |
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 24, 2017 17:35:02 GMT
Sorry, but it just shows how utterly out of touch with what we actually think that you regard Smith as being on the left of the party. He isn't, and never has been. I'm afraid what that shows is that Corbynites simply do not realise how extreme their own politics are. Remember that terms 'extreme left' etc are comparative ones, not absolute ones. Owen Smith is plainly on the left of the Labour Party and can only be viewed as on the right by those so far over to the left that their perspective has been distorted. No. Smith is at best a centrist, but the party and politics in general has moved so far rightwards that even mildly socialist propositions now appear to be very left wing. This is why we need to decide what sort of party we want to be. I don't think its feasible to continue as we are. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Feb 24, 2017 17:36:20 GMT
At the interval of the premiere of Heaven's Gate there was silence from the critics as they awkwardly held their champagne glasses and looked at their shoes. The director Michael Cimino asked them why no one was talking. One famously responded: because we hate the movie Michael.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 24, 2017 17:45:52 GMT
As we all suspected. I remember one or two posters on here,who mainly don't post any more, being convinced of such a concept. But unless they can be energised to vote, then I don't see any future for the Labour party other than a party of opposition. As I say, its going to be a long-term project.... I'm still not convinced that turnout will increase much. After all, it assumes that all non-voters want a more left-wing alternative. In every proportional election, the non-voters stay the same. Take the Netherlands. In 2006, with the Socialist Party on a crest of a wave and various left-wing choices, 19.96% of the electorate still did not vote. In 2003, with them doing fairly well anyway, 20% did not vote. In 2002, with the SP not doing brilliantly, nor GL, nor even the PvdA, 20.6% did not vote, hardly a difference, and that was despite there also being the LPF as an extra new choice on the Right. Go back to 1989 and the only party to the Left of the PvdA was GL, and the only serious party to the Right of the Christian parties and VVD was the CD, who won just one seat. Turnout was...80.3%. Go whichever you want, but a distinctive profile does not necessarily cause non-voters to flock to you. |
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Post by finsobruce on Feb 24, 2017 17:50:13 GMT
Love it. love it. All in full view now. Draw up a chair Blue Tem and watch the fight. Indeed. And I'd rather lose it forever further comment is superfluous I think. |
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