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Post by AdminSTB on Jan 31, 2017 23:03:03 GMT
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 23:08:48 GMT
Lamb was on a hiding to nothing but yes, on balance, I would still be typing in yellow were he leader. I do support Farron's push to make the LibDems distinctive on the Brexit issue, it would be daft not to as I support remaining in the EU, but as such things as real life truly aren't particularly straight forward, I can't swing towards re-joining on that issue alone.
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mondialito
Labour
Everything is horribly, brutally possible.
Posts: 4,961 
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Post by mondialito on Jan 31, 2017 23:56:37 GMT
Possibly, but I have voted 'No' as his hesitance to becoming 'the party of the 48%' would dampen the party's recovery. If Brexit is an objective success, then that strategy isn't feasible long term, but it is precisely what is needed now to trigger a Lib Dem recovery, particularly when no other UK-wide party has adopted that stance.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,014
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 1, 2017 1:27:42 GMT
No. Lamb, for all his great qualities would have spent far more time in Westminster and far less time building our base up as Farron has been doing which is our only viable way forward. His equivocating here is also a pointer to his inate caution which the party hasn't had the luxury of doing since 2015.
I'm on record here and elsewhere of saying that if we were a parliamentary force of 30+ I would have had a much harder time choosing between Lamb and Farron and may well have voted for Lamb. But we're not and we have the right leader for the situation we find ourself in. I'm positive that our frankly ludicrous local by-election success would not have happened with Lamb as leader because the party structure needed to have that sort of success wouldn't have been set up.
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Izzyeviel
Lib Dem
I stayed up for Hartlepools
Posts: 3,279
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Post by Izzyeviel on Feb 1, 2017 2:02:56 GMT
What the others have said. I don't think I would have joined if Norman had won. Doesn't really inspire me to get involved. Whatever your views on Tim, he is at least highly passionate and vocal. And he's getting results.
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,844
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Post by Crimson King on Feb 1, 2017 11:15:34 GMT
It would not have made any difference. Nobody knows who Tim Farron is. Nobody would know who Norman Lamb was, if he was the Leader. in the great scheme of things, that is to all intents and purposes true. However within the sub set of 'anybody' comprising Lib Dem members, and even more so, activists, knowing of, and about Tim Farron does reach significant levels. And it is these people who are needed to win elections |
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Crimson King
Lib Dem
Be nice to each other and sing in tune
Posts: 9,844
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Post by Crimson King on Feb 1, 2017 11:17:29 GMT
incidentally, with my vote just now all the options have exactly the same score, which on a poll about 'fence sitting' Lib Dems is rather poetic
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 11:19:48 GMT
Which leads me to create this thread. Would Lamb have been able to make a bigger impact on Lib Dem fortunes since the last general election than Tim Farron, or would it not have made very much difference? Would doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ or Harry Hayfield still be posting in yellow? Judging by the latest Lib Dem PPB, Farron is clearly pitching for those unable to come to terms with the events of last year, particular Continuity Remainers. Lamb seems to have a more pragmatic air about him, a greater acceptance of the democratic will even if things don't go his way. Tbh I think they're better off overtly pitching for remainers than being 'pragmatic'. They have at least got themselves in the media now and had some good by-elections since Brexit, whereas for the year after the election they were basically invisible. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Feb 1, 2017 11:25:25 GMT
Tbh I think they're better off overtly pitching for remainers than being 'pragmatic'. They have at least got themselves in the media now and had some good by-elections since Brexit, whereas for the year after the election they were basically invisible. Yeah. What exactly is it about the last year of politics that leads anyone to think that a nuanced and balanced approach to anything is a vote winner, compared to shouting the odds and making a swift pivot in the face of facts (possibly denying that you said anything of the sort, if needed)? Not advocating the latter, but there it is. |
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 1, 2017 11:30:52 GMT
I was a Farron voter and would now support just about anyone else... Lamb struck me as very provincial solicitor and obsessed with mental health issues while Tim at least could wave the flag of housing, which would be a more palatable and far reaching policy offering.
The big disappointment is not that Tim is anti-Brexit but that he is anti-Brexit to the exclusion of all other policies. As they say in the US he seemingly cannot "walk and chew gum at the same time". He has dropped housing.. indeed he has dropped everything. He has dropped being multipronged not because the party can't handle it but because he cannot.
He risks alienating the 25-30% of our base who are not fervent Remainers.
Meanwhile I have seen no evidence that the revival in fortunes in local government has anything to do with him but rather more to do with the "base" regaining its mojo.
And he missed the opportunity to move the HQ away for the fleshpots of Westminster while allowing a coterie of affirmative action harpies to seize moral (and candidate) "control" of the party.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,014
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 1, 2017 14:17:55 GMT
I was a Farron voter and would now support just about anyone else... Lamb struck me as very provincial solicitor and obsessed with mental health issues while Tim at least could wave the flag of housing, which would be a more palatable and far reaching policy offering. The big disappointment is not that Tim is anti-Brexit but that he is anti-Brexit to the exclusion of all other policies. As they say in the US he seemingly cannot "walk and chew gum at the same time". He has dropped housing.. indeed he has dropped everything. He has dropped being multipronged not because the party can't handle it but because he cannot. He risks alienating the 25-30% of our base who are not fervent Remainers. Meanwhile I have seen no evidence that the revival in fortunes in local government has anything to do with him but rather more to do with the "base" regaining its mojo. And he missed the opportunity to move the HQ away for the fleshpots of Westminster while allowing a coterie of affirmative action harpies to seize moral (and candidate) "control" of the party. I don't think your characterisation of Tim is a) fair or b) true. If anything he's not even our 'face' of the anti-Brexit/pro-referendum on the deal campaign, Clegg is. It is not exactly his fault that the good work being done by him and the rest of the party on a whole host of issues is being ignored by the media because they only want to hear from us re. Brexit because that is where we have a distinctive line. Our housing or benefits etc hasn't changed and we are fighting those corners in both local and national government but it quite simply isn't going to be heard about apart from internally (as a parliamentary candidate I get an update everyday from the work the party is doing and believe me it's varied) and on the Daily Politics/Today in Westminster. The work that is being done also has an aim, that of building a core vote which in the situation we find ourselves in. As for the structure of the party since Tim has taken over, it has improved exponentially with far less duplication and a concentration on bottom up campaigning and, most importantly, support for that campaigning. Having Tim effective be a peripatetic leader, campaigning as much as possible out and about is a really galvanising aspect as well. So many of our issues in 2015 came from mistakes and misconceptions from the centre and a party that was divorced from its activists, that simply couldn't happen now. As a parliamentary candidate (current) I find your comments about this apparently controlling cabal at the centre of the party and candidates in particular rather bizarre. |
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 1, 2017 15:46:32 GMT
I was a Farron voter and would now support just about anyone else... Lamb struck me as very provincial solicitor and obsessed with mental health issues while Tim at least could wave the flag of housing, which would be a more palatable and far reaching policy offering. The big disappointment is not that Tim is anti-Brexit but that he is anti-Brexit to the exclusion of all other policies. As they say in the US he seemingly cannot "walk and chew gum at the same time". He has dropped housing.. indeed he has dropped everything. He has dropped being multipronged not because the party can't handle it but because he cannot. He risks alienating the 25-30% of our base who are not fervent Remainers. Meanwhile I have seen no evidence that the revival in fortunes in local government has anything to do with him but rather more to do with the "base" regaining its mojo. And he missed the opportunity to move the HQ away for the fleshpots of Westminster while allowing a coterie of affirmative action harpies to seize moral (and candidate) "control" of the party. I don't think your characterisation of Tim is a) fair or b) true. If anything he's not even our 'face' of the anti-Brexit/pro-referendum on the deal campaign, Clegg is. It is not exactly his fault that the good work being done by him and the rest of the party on a whole host of issues is being ignored by the media because they only want to hear from us re. Brexit because that is where we have a distinctive line. Our housing or benefits etc hasn't changed and we are fighting those corners in both local and national government but it quite simply isn't going to be heard about apart from internally (as a parliamentary candidate I get an update everyday from the work the party is doing and believe me it's varied) and on the Daily Politics/Today in Westminster. The work that is being done also has an aim, that of building a core vote which in the situation we find ourselves in. As for the structure of the party since Tim has taken over, it has improved exponentially with far less duplication and a concentration on bottom up campaigning and, most importantly, support for that campaigning. Having Tim effective be a peripatetic leader, campaigning as much as possible out and about is a really galvanising aspect as well. So many of our issues in 2015 came from mistakes and misconceptions from the centre and a party that was divorced from its activists, that simply couldn't happen now. As a parliamentary candidate (current) I find your comments about this apparently controlling cabal at the centre of the party and candidates in particular rather bizarre. PPCs knowing that the party has more than one policy is not much good to anyone dare i say it... And what's more the way things are going anyone who puts in the effort as PPC and then finds that they are in by-election contention may find what happened in Richmond Park happens to them. Though they may let a "token male" through for Liverpool Walton where we scored 2.3% in 2015 in the interests of diversity..  I had thought of doing the PPC selection but thought why waste 50 pounds and a trip to London just to ultimately be out of serious contention because the sexing (sorry, selection) committee groped me and found more than they hoped for. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 16:11:03 GMT
I don't think your characterisation of Tim is a) fair or b) true. If anything he's not even our 'face' of the anti-Brexit/pro-referendum on the deal campaign, Clegg is. It is not exactly his fault that the good work being done by him and the rest of the party on a whole host of issues is being ignored by the media because they only want to hear from us re. Brexit because that is where we have a distinctive line. Our housing or benefits etc hasn't changed and we are fighting those corners in both local and national government but it quite simply isn't going to be heard about apart from internally (as a parliamentary candidate I get an update everyday from the work the party is doing and believe me it's varied) and on the Daily Politics/Today in Westminster. The work that is being done also has an aim, that of building a core vote which in the situation we find ourselves in. As for the structure of the party since Tim has taken over, it has improved exponentially with far less duplication and a concentration on bottom up campaigning and, most importantly, support for that campaigning. Having Tim effective be a peripatetic leader, campaigning as much as possible out and about is a really galvanising aspect as well. So many of our issues in 2015 came from mistakes and misconceptions from the centre and a party that was divorced from its activists, that simply couldn't happen now. As a parliamentary candidate (current) I find your comments about this apparently controlling cabal at the centre of the party and candidates in particular rather bizarre. PPCs knowing that the party has more than one policy is not much good to anyone dare i say it... And what's more the way things are going anyone who puts in the effort as PPC and then finds that they are in by-election contention may find what happened in Richmond Park happens to them. Though they may let a "token male" through for Liverpool Walton where we scored 2.3% in 2015 in the interests of diversity.. I had thought of doing the PPC selection but thought why waste 50 pounds and a trip to London just to ultimately be out of serious contention because the sexing (sorry, selection) committee groped me and found more than they hoped for. I mean this in a spirit of curiosity rather than rudeness: why are you in the Lib Dems? |
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 1, 2017 18:11:41 GMT
PPCs knowing that the party has more than one policy is not much good to anyone dare i say it... And what's more the way things are going anyone who puts in the effort as PPC and then finds that they are in by-election contention may find what happened in Richmond Park happens to them. Though they may let a "token male" through for Liverpool Walton where we scored 2.3% in 2015 in the interests of diversity.. I had thought of doing the PPC selection but thought why waste 50 pounds and a trip to London just to ultimately be out of serious contention because the sexing (sorry, selection) committee groped me and found more than they hoped for. I mean this in a spirit of curiosity rather than rudeness: why are you in the Lib Dems? Because I'm a liberal... |
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Izzyeviel
Lib Dem
I stayed up for Hartlepools
Posts: 3,279
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Post by Izzyeviel on Feb 1, 2017 18:48:32 GMT
Lots of Liberals in the Tories and Labour...
Incidentally, I know several leave voters who have joined us post Brexit - despite our stance on it.
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 1, 2017 19:05:17 GMT
Lots of Liberals in the Tories and Labour... Incidentally, I know several leave voters who have joined us post Brexit - despite our stance on it. Indeed it's the ideal place for Leavers as you can have a decent argument and win because the Remainer arguments are so exceptionally weak when members are pushed to defend their stance.. They revert back to the bogus statistics that were used in the campaign (frequently quoting George Osborne or the comments that Mark Carney has now disowned) or quote some discredited (usually threatening) EU politician like Juncker or start going on about the "young people" before veering into a defense of unskilled labour from FoM sources and then reveal they are actually talking about their own problems getting cheap domestic staff or nannies. When pushed on housing they are really afraid of their property values going down with Brexit rather than the issue of affordability for the upcoming generation.. If you carry the argument far enough you will get a certain notorious LibDem interloper (of the canine persuasion) start railing against the shiftless "underclasses". It's really like taking candy from babies... |
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 1, 2017 19:35:41 GMT
Indeed it's the ideal place for Leavers as you can have a decent argument and win because the Remainer arguments are so exceptionally weak when members are pushed to defend their stance.. They revert back to the bogus statistics that were used in the campaign (frequently quoting George Osborne or the comments that Mark Carney has now disowned) or quote some discredited (usually threatening) EU politician like Juncker or start going on about the "young people" before veering into a defense of unskilled labour from FoM sources and then reveal they are actually talking about their own problems getting cheap domestic staff or nannies. When pushed on housing they are really afraid of their property values going down with Brexit rather than the issue of affordability for the upcoming generation.. If you carry the argument far enough you will get a certain notorious LibDem interloper (of the canine persuasion) start railing against the shiftless "underclasses". It's really like taking candy from babies... Just defect already. To the Liberals?  |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,014
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 1, 2017 19:39:58 GMT
Lots of Liberals in the Tories and Labour... Incidentally, I know several leave voters who have joined us post Brexit - despite our stance on it. Indeed it's the ideal place for Leavers as you can have a decent argument and win because the Remainer arguments are so exceptionally weak when members are pushed to defend their stance.. They revert back to the bogus statistics that were used in the campaign (frequently quoting George Osborne or the comments that Mark Carney has now disowned) or quote some discredited (usually threatening) EU politician like Juncker or start going on about the "young people" before veering into a defense of unskilled labour from FoM sources and then reveal they are actually talking about their own problems getting cheap domestic staff or nannies. When pushed on housing they are really afraid of their property values going down with Brexit rather than the issue of affordability for the upcoming generation.. If you carry the argument far enough you will get a certain notorious LibDem interloper (of the canine persuasion) start railing against the shiftless "underclasses". It's really like taking candy from babies... Ok. Perhaps spending less time tearing into your own side and a bit more time fighting the forces of conformity, ignorance and poverty. You're not in the Labour Party you know... I'm really not at all sure who these Lib Dem members are who you so enjoy beating in an argument but they don't sound like any that I know. Indeed, going back to the housing point earlier, it's generally regarded in the party that house prices are far too high and that part of the point of encouraging more sustainable housebuilding is to increase demand and subsequently bring down prices to being more affordable. I do genuinely wonder if the conbativity part of it is you having grown up/being used to a binary political culture both in your homeland and the States (where I believe you lived for some time). In parties in both Oz and the US, internal internecine conflict is so par for the course as to be endemic. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,778
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 1, 2017 19:44:07 GMT
To the Liberals? They are expanding, I keep getting emails from time to time asking me to join. You could even found your very own branch! |
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Post by Antiochian on Feb 1, 2017 19:58:02 GMT
Indeed it's the ideal place for Leavers as you can have a decent argument and win because the Remainer arguments are so exceptionally weak when members are pushed to defend their stance.. They revert back to the bogus statistics that were used in the campaign (frequently quoting George Osborne or the comments that Mark Carney has now disowned) or quote some discredited (usually threatening) EU politician like Juncker or start going on about the "young people" before veering into a defense of unskilled labour from FoM sources and then reveal they are actually talking about their own problems getting cheap domestic staff or nannies. When pushed on housing they are really afraid of their property values going down with Brexit rather than the issue of affordability for the upcoming generation.. If you carry the argument far enough you will get a certain notorious LibDem interloper (of the canine persuasion) start railing against the shiftless "underclasses". It's really like taking candy from babies... Ok. Perhaps spending less time tearing into your own side and a bit more time fighting the forces of conformity, ignorance and poverty. You're not in the Labour Party you know... The conformity of the LibDems is the "consensus" which is even more insidious than overt demands for majority rule. I have been at events where one person has spoken.. then another one in support of the same thing and then the first person says "ok, we have a consensus, let's move on".. Much of this is also coated with a thick slathering of passive-aggressive behaviour. A shouting match is much more fun if the alternative is a few cunning individuals getting their way by bamboozling the rest. I'd rather have branch-stacking or entryism than that. At least one gets to see the whites of the eyes of the enemy. Its amazing the degree of horror I get when I ask for a vote... its like I was suggesting an orgy.. |
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