Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,020
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Post by Khunanup on Feb 5, 2017 1:45:04 GMT
They've got a link up now for suggestions for Valentines Day.. |
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Andrew_S
Top Poster
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Member is Online
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Post by Andrew_S on Feb 5, 2017 2:33:25 GMT
Why have the Social Democrats suddenly got within striking distance of the CDU/CSU in the last few opinion polls? www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/ |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 2:49:15 GMT
Schulz has for the first time criticized the (in)famous "Agenda 2010" and acknowledged that it has been used to undercut wages.
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Post by iainbhx on Feb 5, 2017 7:45:44 GMT
Why have the Social Democrats suddenly got within striking distance of the CDU/CSU in the last few opinion polls? www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/Two things 1. Merkel is badly damaged since the Asylsommer 2.Schultz, whilst we think of him as a complete clown, is well thought of in Germany and is putting some spunk back into the SPD. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 5, 2017 8:11:07 GMT
Pushing it a bit to describe AfD as neo-Nazis, old chap. Especially given the fact that actual neo-Nazis will be standing. The AfD are pretty much the second coming of Die Republikaner. Or the DNVP, who were also somewhat East German in leadership. OK, it is pushing it a bit.How about "obnoxious dog-whistling racists who are slightly different from the Nazis but would undoubtedly have voted for Hitler if they'd had the vote in 1933"? PS I didn't like Die Republikaner much, either. Also escapists from the cess-pool. Is it worth remembering at this stage that the first deputy leader of Die Republikaner was a former Waffen SS man, member of the NSDAP, and therefore just a teeniest bit Nazi? Or is that contrary to the snowflake tendency of anti-immigrant parties these days, whereby to imply any link between them and fascism is met with howls of outrage? Die Rep were a bit unfortunate. They were meant to be a fairly standard right-of-CSU outfit but then quickly fell prey to the Schönhuber tendency. Then they basically fell apart when he tried to unite them with the definitely neo-Nazi-ish DVU, who later merged with the NPD. |
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Post by AdminSTB on Feb 5, 2017 9:19:25 GMT
Why have the Social Democrats suddenly got within striking distance of the CDU/CSU in the last few opinion polls? www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/Two things 1. Merkel is badly damaged since the Asylsommer 2.Schultz, whilst we think of him as a complete clown, is well thought of in Germany and is putting some spunk back into the SPD. It should also be mentioned that Martin Schultz has only very recently become the SPD leader. It remains to be seen if his honeymoon can last. |
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Post by mrpastelito on Feb 5, 2017 10:52:48 GMT
Pushing it a bit to describe AfD as neo-Nazis, old chap. Especially given the fact that actual neo-Nazis will be standing. The AfD are pretty much the second coming of Die Republikaner. Or the DNVP, who were also somewhat East German in leadership. OK, it is pushing it a bit.How about "obnoxious dog-whistling racists who are slightly different from the Nazis but would undoubtedly have voted for Hitler if they'd had the vote in 1933"? PS I didn't like Die Republikaner much, either. Also escapists from the cess-pool. Is it worth remembering at this stage that the first deputy leader of Die Republikaner was a former Waffen SS man, member of the NSDAP, and therefore just a teeniest bit Nazi? Or is that contrary to the snowflake tendency of anti-immigrant parties these days, whereby to imply any link between them and fascism is met with howls of outrage? I'd probably vote AfD in Germany, but one has to admit they have some very unsavoury people in their ranks. It's easy to imagine (no, actually that's the first thing that springs to mind) André Poggenburg giving the Hitler salute in a brown shirt, to name just one of these specimens. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Feb 5, 2017 11:24:15 GMT
Die Rep were a bit unfortunate. They were meant to be a fairly standard right-of-CSU outfit but then quickly fell prey to the Schönhuber tendency. Then they basically fell apart when he tried to unite them with the definitely neo-Nazi-ish DVU, who later merged with the NPD. I'm at risk of getting out of my depth here and exposing the superficiality of my knowledge of German politics, but I think the Schönhuber issue exposes the problem with anti-immigration parties - by which I do not mean parties which have a policy of strong limitations on immigration, I mean parties which make immigration their focus. Of course it is not inherently racist to want to restrict immigration even at the most extreme level of restriction, but it is inherent in racism to want to stop immigration. If immigration is your main focus, your USP compared to other right-of-centre parties, then you will inevitably attract the unsavoury. (It's not a right wing thing either; it isn't anti-semitic to object to Israeli settlement policies but if you make the Palestine problem the centre-piece of your politics you will inevitably rub up against anti-semites.) This is where I have a fundamental break with mrpastelito. I'm afraid I don't know much about Poggenburg but if I believed what mrpastelito believes about him that would be an absolute bar to me voting for his party. There would have to be someone preferable. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Feb 5, 2017 12:22:51 GMT
I'd have voted for the original incarnation of the AfD but definitely not this. I think Bernd Lucke would be a good addition to the FDP or Union.
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Post by mrpastelito on Feb 5, 2017 12:29:39 GMT
Die Rep were a bit unfortunate. They were meant to be a fairly standard right-of-CSU outfit but then quickly fell prey to the Schönhuber tendency. Then they basically fell apart when he tried to unite them with the definitely neo-Nazi-ish DVU, who later merged with the NPD. I'm at risk of getting out of my depth here and exposing the superficiality of my knowledge of German politics, but I think the Schönhuber issue exposes the problem with anti-immigration parties - by which I do not mean parties which have a policy of strong limitations on immigration, I mean parties which make immigration their focus. Of course it is not inherently racist to want to restrict immigration even at the most extreme level of restriction, but it is inherent in racism to want to stop immigration. If immigration is your main focus, your USP compared to other right-of-centre parties, then you will inevitably attract the unsavoury. (It's not a right wing thing either; it isn't anti-semitic to object to Israeli settlement policies but if you make the Palestine problem the centre-piece of your politics you will inevitably rub up against anti-semites.) This is where I have a fundamental break with mrpastelito . I'm afraid I don't know much about Poggenburg but if I believed what mrpastelito believes about him that would be an absolute bar to me voting for his party. There would have to be someone preferable. They're a young party, and I'm inclined to give them another 4 or 5 years to see which way they're ultimately going - extreme fascist right, nationalist-socalist, national-liberal - that's far from clear right now. Infighting between different factions might lead to their demise, or a reduced core with others joining the FDP or going back to Die Linke. Many AfD voters also say they'd vote CSU (as opposed to CDU) if they had that choice. So whilst I obviously wouldn't vote for people like Poggenburg there's an argument not to write them off as NSDAP II prematurely. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Feb 5, 2017 13:10:02 GMT
OK, it is pushing it a bit.How about "obnoxious dog-whistling racists who are slightly different from the Nazis but would undoubtedly have voted for Hitler if they'd had the vote in 1933"? PS I didn't like Die Republikaner much, either. Also escapists from the cess-pool. Is it worth remembering at this stage that the first deputy leader of Die Republikaner was a former Waffen SS man, member of the NSDAP, and therefore just a teeniest bit Nazi? Or is that contrary to the snowflake tendency of anti-immigrant parties these days, whereby to imply any link between them and fascism is met with howls of outrage? Die Rep were a bit unfortunate. They were meant to be a fairly standard right-of-CSU outfit but then quickly fell prey to the Schönhuber tendency. Then they basically fell apart when he tried to unite them with the definitely neo-Nazi-ish DVU, who later merged with the NPD. To an extent, it's question of what we man by 'Nazi'. These days, it tends to denote jackbooted tattooed scumbags, your basic SA streetfighters. But obviously the historical NSDAP was broader than that, and both their ability to represent respectability and the organisational capabilities their more respectable elements brought made their evil acts much greater in scope. However, the basic fact that the Nazis did things too horrible to ever be forgiven means that associating the term with any respectable grouping is immediately inflammatory. It's sort of the flip-side of the ridiculous claims that fairly standard centre-right figures are Nazis - clearly they aren't, but clearly there are also figures who aren't direct apologists for Nazi thought who nevertheless are more than will to play von Papen for short term gains. |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,846 
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Post by Georg Ebner on Feb 5, 2017 13:43:20 GMT
OK, it is pushing it a bit.How about "obnoxious dog-whistling racists who are slightly different from the Nazis but would undoubtedly have voted for Hitler if they'd had the vote in 1933"? PS I didn't like Die Republikaner much, either. Also escapists from the cess-pool. Is it worth remembering at this stage that the first deputy leader of Die Republikaner was a former Waffen SS man, member of the NSDAP, and therefore just a teeniest bit Nazi? Or is that contrary to the snowflake tendency of anti-immigrant parties these days, whereby to imply any link between them and fascism is met with howls of outrage? I'd probably vote AfD in Germany, but one has to admit they have some very unsavoury people in their ranks. It's easy to imagine (no, actually that's the first thing that springs to mind) André Poggenburg giving the Hitler salute in a brown shirt, to name just one of these specimens. If You refer to that (in) famous Poggenburg-picture (ab)used by certain media: His right arm held a microphone towards the audience. Also Poggenburg had never been at the NPD. |
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Post by finsobruce on Feb 5, 2017 15:45:53 GMT
Two things 1. Merkel is badly damaged since the Asylsommer 2.Schultz, whilst we think of him as a complete clown, is well thought of in Germany and is putting some spunk back into the SPD. It should also be mentioned that Martin Schultz has only very recently become the SPD leader. It remains to be seen if his honeymoon can last. But it is still interesting that it has happened at all. I don't think previous changes have made much differerence or didn't seem to (pls correct if wrong) and I certainly wasn't expecting it. And as iainbhx says just because we don't like some non UK politician doesn't mean that opinion is shared in their own country. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 15:47:52 GMT
Andrew_S It should also be mentioned that Martin Schultz has only very recently become the SPD leader. It remains to be seen if his honeymoon can last. But it is still interesting that it has happened at all. I don't think previous changes have made much differerence or didn't seem to (pls correct if wrong) and I certainly wasn't expecting it. And as iainbhx says just because we don't like some non UK politician doesn't mean that opinion is shared in their own country. Schulz has also made some, albeit cautious, critique of the Schröder era reforms. |
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Post by finsobruce on Feb 5, 2017 15:59:21 GMT
But it is still interesting that it has happened at all. I don't think previous changes have made much differerence or didn't seem to (pls correct if wrong) and I certainly wasn't expecting it. And as iainbhx says just because we don't like some non UK politician doesn't mean that opinion is shared in their own country. Schulz has also made some, albeit cautious, critique of the Schröder era reforms. Yes - you get the impression that although he might think the Grand Coalition is likely to continue there is no need for the SPD to campaign only for second place. |
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Andrew_S
Top Poster
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Post by Andrew_S on Feb 6, 2017 2:45:18 GMT
Die Rep were a bit unfortunate. They were meant to be a fairly standard right-of-CSU outfit but then quickly fell prey to the Schönhuber tendency. Then they basically fell apart when he tried to unite them with the definitely neo-Nazi-ish DVU, who later merged with the NPD. I'm at risk of getting out of my depth here and exposing the superficiality of my knowledge of German politics, but I think the Schönhuber issue exposes the problem with anti-immigration parties - by which I do not mean parties which have a policy of strong limitations on immigration, I mean parties which make immigration their focus. Of course it is not inherently racist to want to restrict immigration even at the most extreme level of restriction, but it is inherent in racism to want to stop immigration. If immigration is your main focus, your USP compared to other right-of-centre parties, then you will inevitably attract the unsavoury. (It's not a right wing thing either; it isn't anti-semitic to object to Israeli settlement policies but if you make the Palestine problem the centre-piece of your politics you will inevitably rub up against anti-semites.) This is where I have a fundamental break with mrpastelito. I'm afraid I don't know much about Poggenburg but if I believed what mrpastelito believes about him that would be an absolute bar to me voting for his party. There would have to be someone preferable. Being slightly pedantic, you could argue that it isn't inherent in racism to stop immigration. Otherwise the Rhodesians wouldn't have been so enthusiastic about immigration from the UK (provided they were white British people). But I guess "immigration" generally refers to non-discriminatory immigration. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Feb 6, 2017 7:57:44 GMT
Excellent pedantry there, you are quite correct. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2017 10:35:03 GMT
Latest SPD poll results and gain since Schulz was picked:
Emnid: 29% (+8)
Forsa: 31% (+10)
Infratest: 28% (+8)
INSA: 27% (+6)
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Post by iainbhx on Feb 6, 2017 14:05:35 GMT
We have crossover
INSA/BILD: SPD 31%, UNION 30%, AfD 12%, LIN 10%, GRÜ 7% FDP 6% Sonstige 4%
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mazuz
Conservative
Posts: 155
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Post by mazuz on Feb 7, 2017 15:04:03 GMT
The problem with any party emerging to the right of the Union is that, due to the huge stigma of being a member of such a party, it is extremely hard to recruit people who are "respectable". You're only going to do it if you are already pretty "out there" politically and don't have much to lose, which is also how the AfD takeover eventually took place. It's how all of these parties have eventually drifted to the loony right. And of course the current direction of AfD only perpetuates the stigma. A vicious circle.
Despite my obvious objections to several of their politicians and viewpoints I'd still vote for them in a federal election (though not in all regional elections), but I'd have to hold my nose. We live in dark times.
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