mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 11, 2020 11:09:58 GMT
Yeh it's all a bit *cringe* isn't it, and I say that as a huge Biden fan. (I said the same re Obama's Nobel, as a huge Obama fan)
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 11, 2020 12:39:36 GMT
(I said the same re Obama's Nobel, as a huge Obama fan) Well yeah, he got that literally JUST for not being Dubya But given we are talking about an award that was terminally discredited for all time when Kissinger got it, its hard to get too upset.
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Post by grahammurray on Dec 11, 2020 18:53:36 GMT
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Dec 13, 2020 15:28:38 GMT
OverView, based on the numbers provided by CookPolitical: DeViations from national average (ME&NE as a whole):
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Post by mrhell on Dec 13, 2020 20:45:07 GMT
Yeh it's all a bit *cringe* isn't it, and I say that as a huge Biden fan. (I said the same re Obama's Nobel, as a huge Obama fan)
It's not a prize for the best person but the most noteworthy. Almost all newly elected presidents have won it then or won it later (and also earlier for Eisenhower) bar Hoover.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 13, 2020 20:49:01 GMT
Yeh it's all a bit *cringe* isn't it, and I say that as a huge Biden fan. (I said the same re Obama's Nobel, as a huge Obama fan) It's not a prize for the best person but the most noteworthy. Almost all newly elected presidents have won it then or won it later (and also earlier for Eisenhower) bar Hoover.
That's always been Time's defence for having given it to Hitler and Stalin - it's the person they think has had the most impact on the year, which might be negative. But they chickened out in 2001 and didn't give it to Osama Bin Laden, but to Rudi Giuliani. That looks increasingly like a bad decision.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 13, 2020 23:31:56 GMT
Yeh it's all a bit *cringe* isn't it, and I say that as a huge Biden fan. (I said the same re Obama's Nobel, as a huge Obama fan) It's not a prize for the best person but the most noteworthy. Almost all newly elected presidents have won it then or won it later (and also earlier for Eisenhower) bar Hoover.
Do you not think the doctor who told the world, "Hey, I've found this new disease in Wuhan", and then got punished for it by the CCP, and then caught it and died...did something more noteworthy than a guy who isn't even president this year? Or what about the two people who invented a new vaccine that's already being used, and will ultimately save tens of millions of lives? Noteworthy?
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Khunanup
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 13, 2020 23:50:35 GMT
It's not a prize for the best person but the most noteworthy. Almost all newly elected presidents have won it then or won it later (and also earlier for Eisenhower) bar Hoover.
Do you not think the doctor who told the world, "Hey, I've found this new disease in Wuhan", and then got punished for it by the CCP, and then caught it and died...did something more noteworthy than a guy who isn't even president this year? Or what about the two people who invented a new vaccine that's already being used, and will ultimately save tens of millions of lives? Noteworthy? The is an American publication...
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 14, 2020 0:18:05 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all.
This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered.
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Post by adlai52 on Dec 14, 2020 8:47:21 GMT
Time magazine have announced their 'Person of the Year': As it can be more than one person, I tend to agree with this reply to a tweet on the subject: True. But this happens to almost all winning presidential candidates, most wind up as Time Person of the Year. As cringeworthy as it is, it has tended to be a good way to sell magazines.
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 14, 2020 9:47:13 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. i don't even think it was that. It was fear of losing place at top table.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 14, 2020 9:59:47 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. Further to this point. We have seen in the last few weeks that the vital institutions, most notably the courts, have largely held the line against an attempted soft coup. Could we really say with certainty that they could and would do so after another four years of Trump?
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 14, 2020 10:00:00 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. In the main I completely agree with you. The last month has actually been worse than I thought Trump was capable of - I never expected him to put pressure on the electoral services of states to overturn results he had lost by miles (and as I've said, I consider that sedition and he should do time for it). But that doesn't mean that a portion of the media coverage of him over the last 4 years wasnt completely hysterical in a way that deadened peoples' responses to his antics and actually - IMO - allowed him to get away with worse because people just tuned out of the daily "Oh my god he's a Nazi!"...
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 14, 2020 11:45:03 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. In the main I completely agree with you. The last month has actually been worse than I thought Trump was capable of - I never expected him to put pressure on the electoral services of states to overturn results he had lost by miles (and as I've said, I consider that sedition and he should do time for it). But that doesn't mean that a portion of the media coverage of him over the last 4 years wasnt completely hysterical in a way that deadened peoples' responses to his antics and actually - IMO - allowed him to get away with worse because people just tuned out of the daily "Oh my got he's a Nazi!"...Probably true. A problem has been a failure to distinguish between "Nazi" and "Fascist" as specific ideological terms, and the methods of The Big Lie, mass rallies, scapegoated minorities, personality cult etc which were pioneered in the 30s by totalitarians and to a great extent adopted by Trump. IMO it was completely valid (and important) to note the parallels in modus operandi but using "Nazi" or "fascist" as an insult fails badly when the people supporting Trump are overwhelmingly nothing of the sort.
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Post by matureleft on Dec 14, 2020 11:54:42 GMT
In the main I completely agree with you. The last month has actually been worse than I thought Trump was capable of - I never expected him to put pressure on the electoral services of states to overturn results he had lost by miles (and as I've said, I consider that sedition and he should do time for it). But that doesn't mean that a portion of the media coverage of him over the last 4 years wasnt completely hysterical in a way that deadened peoples' responses to his antics and actually - IMO - allowed him to get away with worse because people just tuned out of the daily "Oh my got he's a Nazi!"...Probably true. A problem has been a failure to distinguish between "Nazi" and "Fascist" as specific ideological terms, and the methods of The Big Lie, mass rallies, scapegoated minorities, personality cult etc which were pioneered in the 30s by totalitarians and to a great extent adopted by Trump. IMO it was completely valid (and important) to note the parallels in modus operandi but using "Nazi" or "fascist" as an insult fails badly when the people supporting Trump are overwhelmingly nothing of the sort. Indeed. There's some serious academic work to be done on the phenomenon that we've witnessed. A great deal to learn (arguably relearn in large part), and patronising/insulting those caught up in it won't help us either learn or move on productively.
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Post by islington on Dec 14, 2020 11:59:47 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. In the main I completely agree with you. The last month has actually been worse than I thought Trump was capable of - I never expected him to put pressure on the electoral services of states to overturn results he had lost by miles (and as I've said, I consider that sedition and he should do time for it). But that doesn't mean that a portion of the media coverage of him over the last 4 years wasnt completely hysterical in a way that deadened peoples' responses to his antics and actually - IMO - allowed him to get away with worse because people just tuned out of the daily "Oh my got he's a Nazi!"... I agree, and from a longer perspective I'd make a similar comment about the vitriol directed at George W Bush, nowadays looked back on as a pretty much run-of-the-mill Republican president but denounced at the time, by some commentators, in really extreme and offensive terms.
The trouble with doing this is that it means you've shot your bolt, in terms of vituperation, so you when you come up against someone that really merits this level of denunciation, you've nothing left except the same language that you've used before.
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Post by Richard Cromwell on Dec 14, 2020 12:10:27 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. In the main I completely agree with you. The last month has actually been worse than I thought Trump was capable of - I never expected him to put pressure on the electoral services of states to overturn results he had lost by miles (and as I've said, I consider that sedition and he should do time for it). But that doesn't mean that a portion of the media coverage of him over the last 4 years wasnt completely hysterical in a way that deadened peoples' responses to his antics and actually - IMO - allowed him to get away with worse because people just tuned out of the daily "Oh my got he's a Nazi!"... Is it not possible, in light of the man praising a far-right conspiracy theory (QAnon), dog-whistling to a far-right militia (the Proud Boys) and trying - in his own buffoonish and incompetent way but trying all the same - to destroy American democracy, that the hysterical cries of "Nazi!" were not far off the mark? Certainly, I remember (and may, I think, have even indulged) the contrary view that his instincts were those of a typical New Yorker, that he would perhaps be something of a bi-partisan maverick (indeed I remember the brief hubbub that Michelle Ree would be his education secretary, rather than the vile loony Detsy DeVos), that he was just the shot of rudeness and sleaze that an oversensitive and unfocused left needed to reform itself. Instead, he had the instincts of a John Bircher, he crafted for himself an alliance with the nastiest, nuttiest and least principled elements of American conservatism, lathered himself in swamp water, touched the orb and his legacy (assuming he even leaves well enough alone - which he won't because the incoming administration will likely avoid prosecuting him) will be a section of the Republic party now permanently dedicated to wrecking the constitution.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 14, 2020 12:27:06 GMT
As this thread finally wends to its end, almost four years after its start, I'd like to revisit the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and say to anyone who has ever used it: Now do you see what we were on about? Do you finally see that it doesn't matter if Trump's actual policies were or were not within the range of what might be expected from a Republican President? It does matter that decent people felt that Trump was or is their best option, but that doesn't outweigh the bigger point that for four years the USA has been led by a man who has undermined its constitution, taken a wrecking ball to two-party politics, and damaged the whole concept of The West as an alliance of like-minded democracies; that it remains to be seen how quickly any of this can be repaired, if at all. This, these last couple of months of trying to lie and cheat to save D Trump's fat arse, with a bunch of sycophants and weasels colluding out of fear of a mob of morons, is what we were on about. The derangement was in anyone who tried to pretend none of it really mattered. Would it be overly amiss to do a boogs and observe that whilst 17 people have liked this, none are from the blue team? (and indeed only one "unaligned" obvious right winger - the ever admirable on this issue Richard A)
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Post by No Offence Alan on Dec 14, 2020 13:34:52 GMT
In the main I completely agree with you. The last month has actually been worse than I thought Trump was capable of - I never expected him to put pressure on the electoral services of states to overturn results he had lost by miles (and as I've said, I consider that sedition and he should do time for it). But that doesn't mean that a portion of the media coverage of him over the last 4 years wasnt completely hysterical in a way that deadened peoples' responses to his antics and actually - IMO - allowed him to get away with worse because people just tuned out of the daily "Oh my got he's a Nazi!"... I agree, and from a longer perspective I'd make a similar comment about the vitriol directed at George W Bush, nowadays looked back on as a pretty much run-of-the-mill Republican president but denounced at the time, by some commentators, in really extreme and offensive terms. The trouble with doing this is that it means you've shot your bolt, in terms of vituperation, so you when you come up against someone that really merits this level of denunciation, you've nothing left except the same language that you've used before.
And, of course, I would put the left's denigration of the 2010-2015 government here in the same category.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Dec 14, 2020 13:36:55 GMT
I agree, and from a longer perspective I'd make a similar comment about the vitriol directed at George W Bush, nowadays looked back on as a pretty much run-of-the-mill Republican president but denounced at the time, by some commentators, in really extreme and offensive terms. The trouble with doing this is that it means you've shot your bolt, in terms of vituperation, so you when you come up against someone that really merits this level of denunciation, you've nothing left except the same language that you've used before.
And, of course, I would put the left's denigration of the 2010-2015 government here in the same category. "Most right-wing government in history" they said
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